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Thread: *P subtail razor early 1800's, looking for info

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    Senior Member charlie48horlogerie's Avatar
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    Default *P subtail razor early 1800's, looking for info

    Hello

    I'm sure the information is on this forum, I've read it in the past, but I can't find it anymore...

    So I'm looking for the name of the Sheffield's cutler in the begining of the XIX century that use the mark "*P"

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    Merci
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    Historically Inquisitive Martin103's Avatar
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    NORRIS, SAMUEL
    Sheffield
    1795 - 1815


    Samuel Norris Sheffield (c1795-1815), used trademark *P
    Last edited by Martin103; 12-15-2012 at 01:32 PM.

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    Senior Member charlie48horlogerie's Avatar
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    Many thanks !

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    Alex Ts.

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    Funny thing is that Charlie translated the Lummus article and posted at the "Coupe Chou Club".

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    What sim devaysom can do?

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    Senior Member 1971Wedge's Avatar
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    Glad you found the answer, and btw.....nice razor!

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    Senior Member blabbermouth
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    There is a little more to the *P mark than just Samuel Norris, Charlie!

    For instance, in 1747 the mark belonged to Fox & Norris of Westbar, Sheffield - not Samuel Norris but his father Matthew Norris, as Samuel would have only been 2 yrs old.
    Fox & Norris are also recorded in a 1787 Directory of Sheffield (confusingly, so is William Fox - he died in 1769, however - the only one of the Fox brothers left alive at this time was John Fox). Matthew died in 1761, so the Norris in Fox & Norris in 1787 must have been Samuel Norris.

    This is confirmed in a 1797 Directory in which Samuel appears on his own as "Samuel Norris, late of Fox & Norris, factor, razor pen-knife & lancet manufacturer, also razor strop and case maker, 55 Westbar."

    The Fox brothers (John: 1714 - 1790s, Stephen: 1716 - 1773, and William: 1719 - 1769) were Samuel's uncles, and Samuel was heir to their business.

    Samuel was made Master Cutler in 1777. He had been running another business with his son as "Samuel Norris & Son" - this company is not listed in the 1787 directory, though, but it is recorded that it was dissolved in 1804 so was relatively short-lived. Samuel had five sons. Three of them - Samuel, John & William are all recorded as 'died young' which usually means in infancy and the fourth, another John, was born in 1780 and died in 1826 - he was recorded as a razor maker, so the partnership of Samuel Norris & Son was with son John. The other son, Thomas, was cryptically recorded as 'originally in trade' but was ultimately involved with the church.

    Samuel Norris was declared bankrupt in 1809 and died in 1817. At the time of bankruptcy all his goods were sold, including the Westbar premises comprised of house, workshops, warehouses, a grocers shop with its own warehouse and dwelling house, land and with 4 newly erected houses on it, another parcel of land with 12 houses on it - several just built, stables, and his two grinding wheels (Cloughs Wheels) on the River Sheath.

    In 1809 there were two others resident at the Culver Street works - Samuels sons John and Thomas Norris. John continued as a razor-smith, but Thomas took to the church quite a while earlier, becoming ordained in that year (1809) an Army Chaplain, Priest in 1810 and dying in Chelsea, London, in 1816.

    So, if the maker was Samuel Norris then he could only inherit the '*P' mark after the winding-up of Fox and Norris - some time after 1787 (and possibly in to the 1790s, when the last Fox brother died but before the directory listing of 1797) as the 1797 listing has 'late Fox & Norris' then I would assume that Fox & Norris had traded until comparatively recently to that year. Which gives his dates of operation (ie using the '*P' mark solely for himself) as (say-) 1795 - 1809.

    Regards,
    Neil
    Last edited by Neil Miller; 12-15-2012 at 04:15 PM.

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    Historically Inquisitive Martin103's Avatar
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    Funny how we get different information about these people, for instance this article claims that Samuel had 10 children and you state he had five.
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    Senior Member blabbermouth
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martin103 View Post
    Funny how we get different information about these people, for instance this article claims that Samuel had 10 children and you state he had five.
    Name:  samuel norris family.JPG
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    That's because you didn't read my post properly - I said he had five sons, I didn't mention girls!

    Regards,
    Neil

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