Thread: Size vs. Grind

"Just be aware that either Classic or TI is a little too free with that label. I've got three different 'singing' TI's and none of them are anywhere near thin enough to sing. All of my truly singing blades are of different makes."

I am assuming that it's the grind on these that make them 'singing' and that that will influence the shave in some way. Correct? I'm not familiar with Classic or TI but read that TI makes a 'singing' one - very pronounced thinness to the blade that makes this grind preferable for heavy beards. I've seen razors in shops but they don't say what grind they are, let alone singing or not, and personell are usually not that knowledgable in the details of grind etc. Maybe by looking at 2 or 3 side by side I'd be able to tell the difference Susuki is speaking about.
Regards,
Zig

It is the grind that makes them sing, but there is a wide variation in the thinness of full hollow razors - this is partly why I disagreed with the OP's thesis.

Some of them, like my old Genco "Di Roma" was so flexible that you could see the blade flex on the hone with even the lightest pressure. Now *that* blade would sing during the shave. And I've got several other razors that aren't quite as flexible but also sing noticeably during the shave. But my "singing" TI Pierre-forged razor is a 1/2 hollow razor with a nearly imperceptible secondary grind - the only way that blade is gonna sing is if you hit it with a hammer. It's an incredible shaver, one of the best out there, but it's definitely *not* a singing blade. My egyptian palmwood is also described as a singing blade and it's probably a 3/4 hollow with a vestigial secondary grind. Of my three TI's, the only one that might be a singer is my SRP razor, it looks thin enough but I haven't shaved with it yet so I don't know for sure. But all of these razors are described by Classic as full-hollow singing blades.

Regarding the grind on a singing razor ( refered to as extra hollow grind I believe)... are they supposed to flex and follow the contours of the face thereby giving a closer shave? If they're designed for the tough beard, will a less than tough beard benifit from a singer?

... what is a vestigial secondary grind?

Are the extra hollow grinds more delicate ( fragile ) than full or half grounds? Are they more prone to damage and need honed more often?

Thanks, again
Zig

Originally Posted by Zig

Regarding the grind on a singing razor ( refered to as extra hollow grind I believe)... are they supposed to flex and follow the contours of the face thereby giving a closer shave? If they're designed for the tough beard, will a less than tough beard benifit from a singer?

No, they shouldn't flex that much if you're doing it right. They aren't designed for tough beards, they are simply lighter and easier to hone.

Originally Posted by Zig

... what is a vestigial secondary grind?

On a full hollow razor there are two grinds, the big one from spine to edge, and a secondary grind using a smaller grinding wheel that goes down the middle of the blade. On a "singer" this secondary grind will result in a paper-thin section of blade that thickens out right above the bevel - the blade winds up with a kind of upside-down coke-bottle shape. But on the two TI's I mentioned, the secondary grind doesn't result in that coke-bottle shape at all, and on my pierre-forged razor the secondary grind is only faintly defined, it's like they just wafted the wheel over the razor and called it a day.

Originally Posted by Zig

Are the extra hollow grinds more delicate ( fragile ) than full or half grounds? Are they more prone to damage and need honed more often?

They are a bit more delicate, but no razor is particularly tough so I'm not sure it's a big deal.

Mparker has done a good job of explaining the difference between the difference between full and extra-hollow blades.

And while there are innumberable variations on these themes (for example slightly larger/heavier spines, frameback razors and blade material) and you will find similarly ground razors of similar size that shave differently, I think there are some generalizations you can make about different types of grinds - for example the whole "singing" blade thing is nothing more than a theme on the hollow grind.

As a rule, the "wedgier" the grind, the stiffer and heavier the razor - as compared to other razors of a similar width. Weight and stiffnes can improve the feel of a shave - you can lighten up on the pressure and let the razor do most of the work and the blade edge is less likely to deflect as it is backed by more metal (its not the blade that can deflect, its the edge).

However, the trade off is that the "wedgier" the blade, the more work it is to sharpen as you have to remove more metal - a full wedge has a triangular profile and the entire surface of the blade is in contact with the hone when sharpening. At the opposite extreme, in the case of the full or extra-hollow, only the spine and the edge are in contact with the hone during sharpening. This means you have to remove less metal to sharpen the edge. Mu understanding is that the secondary bevel in a hollow razor is a strengthening element that is designed to add stiffness without adding to the amount of metal in contact with the hone during sharpening.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with hollow ground razors - and I did not inted to infer that - I have several hollow ground razors including a Sheffield silver 6/8 TI that is a wonderful shaver. However, my understanding is that the main benefit of the hollow grind is that it makes the razor easier to sharpen (for the manufacturer and barber, as well as the consumer) and that there is a downside to this (ligher, more flexible blades).

I am not trying to say that hollow ground razors are bad and "wedgier" razors better or that you can't get a good shave from a certain size/grind razor.

All I'm saying is that grind is as important a factor as size and that newbies should be aware of this - often newbies move up to larger razors to get more weight/stiffnes than you get in a 5/8 full hollow. The purpose of the thread was simply to encourage experimentation with different grinds as a way for new straight shavers to get the feel they wanted withouth having to move up in blade size.

All I'm saying is that grind is as important a factor as size and that newbies should be aware of this - often newbies move up to larger razors to get more weight/stiffnes than you get in a 5/8 full hollow. The purpose of the thread was simply to encourage experimentation with different grinds as a way for new straight shavers to get the feel they wanted withouth having to move up in blade size.[/quote]

,,, and that it has. I've been using a Dovo 5/8 (hollow ground I think) for 10 years now. Thanks to this group I have made a quantum leap in my strive for perfection. I have a DePew 4/8, Wade and Butcher 6/8, and Johnathan Crooke 5/8 all hollow ground I think. I get good shaves with all of them. I'm encouraged now to try a TI Super Gnome half hollow ground just to see what a difference in grind is like. Maybe next I'll try a fully hollow ground TI Evide Sonnenant Extra to see what that's like. I understand that each will give a good shave depending on sharpness, angle, and prep but I'm intrigued by the possible difference that grind can make. Thanks to all for the usual excellent input.
Regards,
Zig

I only have a 5/8 full hollow, but I suspect the following:

A 'perfect' shave depends on having a sharp razor, quality lather, beard prep and technique.

Since I always use the same razor, I know that the quality of my shave depends on the other 3 factors. I have found that variation in prep, good lather and technique can really make the difference between razor burn or a perfect shave.

Using a 7/8 or 8/8 can partially compensate for poor quality of the other factors, because it is stiffer and shapes your skin without cutting into it, I think.
but if you can really shave well, you can shave with anything. Even a sharpened spoon, provided it is HHT sharp.

Originally Posted by Bruno

Using a 7/8 or 8/8 can partially compensate for poor quality of the other factors, because it is stiffer and shapes your skin without cutting into it, I think.

Not that I've ever noticed. I think all other factors being equal, the larger razors have the following differences from the smaller sizes

(a) look cooler - because waving a *small* knife around your throat just isn't tough enuff.
(b) are slightly easier to hone - very useful when starting out
(c) hold more lather - slightly faster shave
(d) more mass=more momentum - less likely to stall out if it hits a tough patch it isn't quite sharp enough to handle
(e) larger polar moment of inertia - more stability. feels "stiffer" than it really is
(f) larger shank - better grip and more control.

Most of these are advantages when you're just starting out, but matter less with more experience. IMO after awhile the heavier razors start feeling a bit "numb" because there are so many factors dampening out the feedback.

Originally Posted by Zig

"Just be aware that either Classic or TI is a little too free with that label. I've got three different 'singing' TI's and none of them are anywhere near thin enough to sing. All of my truly singing blades are of different makes."

Take a look at the way TI workers strop their razors in the factory and you'll understand why they sing! Video is on: http://www.shaving-and-razor-shop.co...ers-Issard.htm

I am not sure whether this page is also in English, just press the word "filmpje" which is below the picture of someone behind a grinding machine.
Also interesting to see how the razor is honed. I have been told by the owner of Ardennes Coticule that that is also the way razors are honed in the area of the quarry. he even showed me an interesting old hone that had W shaped wear due to the fact that the one side of the blade is honed on one half of the hone and the other side of the blade on the other side of the hone in a similar way they do the stropping in the video!