Thread: Is a bit of patina a bad thing

Depending upon the individual razor or the friends' request, I do restorations in both styles. I prefer to be appropriate to the blade for finish and scales. Some of mine are really eye popping bling and others like the beautiful example above, show their history.
I have a few razors and all but one NOS Solingen and a few GDs, I have found in the wild and restored to shave ready. That means they shave my face well... they may not be nice for you.
Take care and enjoy..Your Razors in the condition you want them. They can outlast us all!
~Richard

eod7...Black rust (ie. patina) helps prevent red rust. Red rust will flake off and eat into the steel, black rust forms and stays put, helping prevent further oxidation.

What he said is also born out from my limited experience. I think that black patina may be like a natural gun browning or bluing that happens over the years. ( Steel and iron browning or bluing are the same basic process and the treatment after the basic controlled rusting is different. )
Wikipedia Bluing
~Richard

I have a few that the patina has developed so remarkebly well and dark over the century that I simply cant MAKE myself buff it out.

Every razor is different, so I appreciate each razor different.
Its just like people. Some are beautiful to look at but have nothing to say.
Others are plain, but contain great wisdom if one but asks.

I like mine clear and shiny if at all possible. I try to get out all the pitting as much as possible. I guess it's my own ocd, I want them as bright and shiny and like new as I can get them.

The difference between the old dark steel and the polished edge can be astounding!

"Some are beautiful to look at but have nothing to say." Magpie, I didn't know you knew my ex!

True black rust is magnetite - oxidised iron that is magnetic. The type of black rust we get on razors is a state between red rust and black rust, so not truly black rust.

red rust = Fe2O3
black rust = Fe3O4

Black rust in other words is red rust that has been further oxidised, so it isn't as damaging to the metal. The type of reaction needed to turn red rust into a protective black (or plum brown or blue) layer getting a light coating of rust on the object (exposing to acid vapour in a damp environment overnight is the quickest way) is boiling the piece in water, than covering with oil. With antique firearms they repeated the rusting/boiling process, removing loose rust by brushing (carding) until the colour they wanted was achieved, then a final boiling and covering with oil. Later, hot chemical processes appeared. The result was quite stable (but not 100% stable) and we have got part of that reaction in old razors, but even less stable.

'Patina' - in my opinion as far as razors are concerned, is not the same thing, but I know others disagree. When I hear 'patina' in connection with razors I think of an old razor, dull and greyish but time and wear, without blotches of black or red rust on it. Rust blotches were not there originally and are signs of poor maintenance and the damaging effect this has on steel. The even greyish, sometimes blueish coating on steel is something different. It is a partially oxidised layer, so protects the steel more than if it wasn't there. I quite like it, but it is easily removed - unlike black or red rust. This sort of patina has obviously arisen due to how the razor was handled over the years, but it must have something to do with exposure to a lightly humid environment, some sort of acid and or some sort of tannin. Old processes include using water made from oak galls (tannic acid), tea (tannic acid) and urine - old manuals specify female urine gathered first thin in the morning as being the best), plus there must have been some sealing process, using oil or wax or similar.

Like others have said, if you like the way your razor looks then keep it like that - as long as it is clean and the edge is fresh then it doesn't really matter. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, after all.

Regards,
Neil

I would tend to agree with Neil here. I have seen many razors with that greyish look to them and it does not buff off well. It just seems to be the color the metal has turned over time. It may or may not have the pitting or rusting going on, but that is a separate matter. It is also not the tarnish which does easily buff off in most cases back to mirror. I find true Patina to be an elegant look in an old nice razor, but that is my preference.

Have fun

Most of the time I remove anything deep and crumbly and just leave everything that is structurally sound. Give it a quick pass under the buffer to develop a nice hard shine and be happy with what I get. Some of these razors can be 200+ years old and it would personally be very hard for me to start grinding away at them.

Personally I cannot understand how some people think that a mirror shine suits a +/- 150 year razor. I highly doubt they looked like that new and to me it just looks kind of perverted, inasmuch as a razor can look perverted. It's a matter of personal taste, yes, but I just find it strange.

Even more modern razors have shine, but more often than not they have vertical grind marks, at least on the blade face. This goes for pretty much all of my Swedish razors, including the high end ones such as C.V. Heljestrand MK 30-33. I put a mirror shine on my very first restoration (still some pitting left though), a J&R Dodge concave razor and regret it to this day.

A mirror shine is relatively easy to accomplish compared to the authentic looking vertical grindmarks (or 'satin finish', even though they're not quite the same). And a relatively even patina just looks friggin' awesome.

Wow, thanks for the replies guys.

I think the razors I picked up from the antique shop, 5 in the end, were kept in a garage, shed or attic for 30 years plus.

For the most part, Genco and HB&H razors aside, there were large patches of red rust which when flaked off left big ugly patches of black rust. The Genco and HB&H were actually quite shiny to begin with.

The shop have a few more in storage as there isn't a big demand for them where I live and the blades "aren't rusty but look discoloured and dull".

The 3 I have which need cleaning up are all wedge like razors even if they have hollow ground stamped into them. 2 of them have quite shiny steel visible on them aside from the rust patches which are not pretty.

I think I'll have these cleaned as best they can get.

The others, depending on how they look I may leave. At least I hope I can.

There have been some awesome photographs of older razors with a mirror edge and the rest of the blade dull. I think with that look you can tell the razor has 'lived' I suppose. It done it's done it's job for a century or more and is still doing it well.

Originally Posted by Pithor

Personally I cannot understand how some people think that a mirror shine suits a +/- 150 year razor. I highly doubt they looked like that new and to me it just looks kind of perverted, inasmuch as a razor can look perverted. It's a matter of personal taste, yes, but I just find it strange.

Even more modern razors have shine, but more often than not they have vertical grind marks, at least on the blade face. This goes for pretty much all of my Swedish razors, including the high end ones such as C.V. Heljestrand MK 30-33. I put a mirror shine on my very first restoration (still some pitting left though), a J&R Dodge concave razor and regret it to this day.

A mirror shine is relatively easy to accomplish compared to the authentic looking vertical grindmarks (or 'satin finish', even though they're not quite the same). And a relatively even patina just looks friggin' awesome.

the reason is simple- Sheffield man Roger Hinchliffe invented a high gloss polish known as 'black polish' in 1760 and it quickly became the preferred finish for high-end cutlery of all types. It was a secret crocus formula, eventually cracked by Solingen bladesmith and razor maker Daniel Peres, who set up business in 1792 and had a factory by 1801. So - mirror polishing was an option at least 200 years ago

That is not to say it was a universal finish - far from it. We all have individual preferences and no doubt all preferences were catered for. Furthermore a high polish was only applied to high-end cutlery, while the easy to achieve 'satin' polish was more prevalent, mainly due to being cheaper.

Sure,razors that are ground and finished on fine round mechanically driven water stone wheels will show grind marks (virtually all modern razors), but this is a finish of choice and if very fine adorns expensive as well as cheap items.

In fact it is very hard to know what the finish was on very old blades - typically because of the possibility that they were wedges originally, or at least very thick compared to the later hollow ground blades, and most have been reground at a later date using a technology which was not available at the time they were made, so discussing finish is pretty much an exercise in futility.

As for a mirror shine being easier to obtain than a satin finish, I beg to differ. A satin finish is simple - even a radial very fine scotchbrite wheel will do that in seconds. A true mirror shine involves many more steps - more sanding stages, more abrasive compound stages, more buffing compound stages, more final polishing stages.

But, as we probably all agree, it is a matter of taste. Facts aren't though.

Regards,
Neil