Thread: Cryogenics - check it out...

Thank you guys for the words of wizdom.

I realize some of you probably know a lot more about this than me. But what confuses me is two things

1) The chart I posted on improvement has high carbon steel improving more than stainless stell. In this case, high carbon stell is probably the lower alloy steel, whereas the stainless steel is the high alloy steel. It seems that this is completely backwards of what Robert says. So I assume if what Robert says is true, then they must be giving a chart for completely UNtempered/Unquenched steels that still have tons of unbonded carbon to convert into martinsitic steel.

2) Beyond the guy with the business of treating razor blades, I see that NASCAR (hang on a second now ) treats their engine parts. Now granted I have my opinions about NASCAR and it's credibility, but if what Robert is saying here is true, then unless the engine parts are either a) all stainless steel, or b) untempered/unquenched carbon steel, then it seems that again this is just a marketing ploy.

I guess I'm left with a feeling that, aside from dipping in liquid N2 being a bad idea, 1) the general consensus is our razors won't really improve at all by slowly being lowered to -300C. 2) there is more to cryogenic treatments than simply lowering the temperature of something for a period of time, and 3) most of this is marketing hype.

I guess I'm left wondering... what DOES make that wonderedge so much better??

Originally Posted by fredvs79

I guess I'm left wondering... what DOES make that wonderedge so much better??

Well, they're hardly the last word in razordom, there are other razors out there are equal or better.

As for the benefits of cryo treatment, I've got one of papabull aka Robert Williams's razors and it's harder and tougher than any of my cryo treated blades, so I'd be inclined to believe him.

Originally Posted by fredvs79

I guess I'm left wondering... what DOES make that wonderedge so much better??

Lynn's shaving video. Other than that, the Wonderedge has the same steel type and treatment as my DOVO Special. And fancier scales and swirl patern, too...

cheers,
Nenad

p.s. I haven't shaved with the Wonderedge, so I really don't know...

Originally Posted by fredvs79

1) The chart I posted on improvement has high carbon steel improving more than stainless stell. In this case, high carbon stell is probably the lower alloy steel, whereas the stainless steel is the high alloy steel. It seems that this is completely backwards of what Robert says. So I assume if what Robert says is true, then they must be giving a chart for completely UNtempered/Unquenched steels that still have tons of unbonded carbon to convert into martinsitic steel.

The chart you show, was from some ten year old publication, just now starting to make the rounds again. All the websites I looked at name this fellow (Barron) but there are no references to the article he published. This is not a good thing. Academic attribution is critical for making claims.

The only steel on that list (replicated numerous times on sites advertising to sell you this process) that qualifies as a low alloy steel is O-1. Barron has anecdotally claimed to another article writer that all steels will improve using this process. The objective data about those steels has not been published to my knowledge.

But, if the heat treatment for carbon low alloy steels is correct in the beginning, using liquid nitrogen or dry ice is a redundant process with little likelihood of improving the final product.

If, then, a carbon low alloy steel improves from cryotreatments, I would argue that the basic heat treatment was faulty in the first place.

... the guy with the business of treating razor blades, I see that NASCAR (hang on a second now ) treats their engine parts. Now granted I have my opinions about NASCAR and it's credibility, but if what Robert is saying here is true, then unless the engine parts are either a) all stainless steel, or b) untempered/unquenched carbon steel, then it seems that again this is just a marketing ploy.

I guess I'm left with a feeling that, aside from dipping in liquid N2 being a bad idea, 1) the general consensus is our razors won't really improve at all by slowly being lowered to -300C. 2) there is more to cryogenic treatments than simply lowering the temperature of something for a period of time, and 3) most of this is marketing hype.

There are several steels that will improve from this process. There are a good many metallic items that do improve with cold treatment. None of which are routinely used in manufacturing razors. So, it's going to be money spent on a process which has not been proven to work in those steels. I have yet to see objective data, with the exception of the one author noted above. I remember freezing magnesium engine blocks in Volkswagons and that did have a notable improvement in resistance to wear in the treated parts. But, for the most part, this is money spent on a process that may or may not improve a carbon steel razor blade. Stainless razor blade, you get no argument from me.

From an industrial perspective, guys on the inside of the tool and die shops, say that yes, there is an effect on the high alloy steels, but for the money involved, there isn't enough improvement to justify the expenditure. One a "one-of" NASCAR engine and gaining every little microscopic edge on winning, who knows?

Many metals would benefit from cryogenic treatment, as far as I can tell. High carbon steel that's been properly heat treated, however, isn't one that will do any wonders for high carbon steel, but.... if people want to pay for cryogenic treating, I'll treat 'em. I just wouldn't recommend it for high carbon steel and I wouldn't recommend it for razors that have already gone through all heat treating, regardless of the type of steel. For one thing, if nothing else, the scales are going to have to come off because after the cryo treatment, the razors will have to get stuck in a tempering oven and that introduces 2 more opportunities to screw up a good blade. Once during the cryogenic treatment and once during the post treatment re-tempering.

But as I said... that's just my take on things. Trying out new stuff keeps life interesting, so don't let me discourage you.

I am curious about the tempering part after the cryo treatment. I'll admit I know little about actual metallurgy, besides some reading I've done which I would hardly qualify as authoritative.

That being said, a lot of rifle barrels are cryo treated, and to the best of my knowledge no heating takes place afterwards. At least, many companies (and specifically, 300below) claim that there will be no change in the finish of your gun, whether it is blued, parkerized or whatever. I have a hard time buying that they temper the barrel again. Is this something that is done to razors because they are blades and barrels are steel tunnels, or am I missing something?

The debate about cryo seems to rage constantly wherever it is used, and as someone pointed out earlier, most of the research is done or sponsered by the companies that sell cryo, so...would be nice to really know.

300 below's website does advise that (in so many words) cryo-ing high carbon steel is pointless.

Originally Posted by TomlinAS

I am curious about the tempering part after the cryo treatment. ...

That being said, a lot of rifle barrels are cryo treated, and to the best of my knowledge no heating takes place afterwards. At least, many companies (and specifically, 300below) claim that there will be no change in the finish of your gun, whether it is blued, parkerized or whatever. ...

Good questions though. When one quenches a steel to form martensite, some steels, especially the high alloy steels like 4140 or 4340 as in gun barrels may not form all the martensite they can. So, taking the temperature down further will cause some of the retained austenite to convert to martensite. At that point, the newly converted martensite, aka untempered martensite, should be tempered to avoid brittleness and fractures and all sorts of nasty things happening when you pull the trigger on a high pressure cap etc.

A tempering cycle would be up into the 450-900 Fahrenheit range depending on how strong the steel had to be at the end. Parkerizing requires some heat too so that wouldn't be affected. Since gun barrels are not hardened to the range knife steels would be, but more like a spring, but not soft either, they could handle quite a bit of temperature without change, except in the critical area where the untempered martensite is now tempered and not brittle any longer.

If it was me, I'd heata cryo'd gun barrel to at least 450 F for two hours just to be sure.

I'd heat it for at least 2 hours at 450, too and would probable go up to 500 for 2 hours. Bad things happen to gun barrells with brittle steel. And even worse things could happen to the shooter of such a barrell.

Originally Posted by superfly

Lynn's shaving video. Other than that, the Wonderedge has the same steel type and treatment as my DOVO Special. And fancier scales and swirl patern, too...

cheers,
Nenad

p.s. I haven't shaved with the Wonderedge, so I really don't know...

AMEN! That's it in a nutshell. Dovos were like any other razor until Lynn's shaving video. just ask around.

I know if I could afford a Maestro Livi I'd get one in a heart beat. Why? because a man with well over 30 years straight razor experience swears by them. Care to guess his name?

Ever wonder what brands he DIDN'T mention, that are great shavers.