Thread: Cryogenics - check it out...

Originally Posted by Mike Blue

One a "one-of" NASCAR engine and gaining every little microscopic edge on winning, who knows?

Originally Posted by mparker762

though the manufacturer may not have known that (or necessarily have cared - it's something else for the marketing guys to brag about).

That's the deal right there, often Cryoing something properly heat treated has an "academic" level of improvement, aka one so small that for all practical purposes it's pointless. However in a high competition, nearly no limit budget application, it becomes a matter of "If we didn't do it and we lose there was always SOMETHING more we could do"

Razors? Simple.. "We need something to set us apart. We cryo our parts!" Does it help maybe, marginally, but it might sell more. And if they can justify to the consumer that it's worth the extra cost then it is worth the extra cost to the company.

A good example of this is Hart barrels one of the leading barrel makers out there "

.... Does cryo-treating reduce stress in Hart Rifle Barrels?

Cryo-treating steel has been in practice for many years to reduce stress in metal, and is very effective in some metals. The Crucible Specialties , Inc. 416R stainless steel we use to manufacture barrels is virtually unaffected by cryo-treating. Crucible's metallurgist have advised us that cryo-treating has no effect on 416R stainless steel. We have also independently tested several barrels and have been unable to detect any difference in the steel. We offer this service, as several of our customers believe in it and feel it gives them a competitive edge. The final choice is yours as to whether you feel this service is necessary.

As you can see, in their case they offer the service, but flatly state they don't find much of a difference in doing it.

In my experience with rifle barrels and cryo'ed barrels. In SOME cases you can lap a barrel to a smoother finish with a cryo'ed barrel. Personally I would much rather spend the money truing the action, or going to a larger contour and fluting the barrel. A bit off topic but just my general experiences.

I would personally like to see what happens when you treat the edge of a razor with a product like Moly Fusion, originally made for gun barrels and the like.

Cryogenic treatment, at least in the barrel world, is meant more to reduce stresses by cooling the barrel to near absolute-zero and bringing it back up to normal temperature VERY SLOWLY and EVENLY. The whole process is said to eliminate stresses in the barrel which might have occurred a number of ways, from shaping to rifling or whatnot. It's the same concept as annealing lampworked or blown glass items, as modifying the structure of something introduces stresses which can only be removed by changing the temperature of it in a controlled way very evenly. One neat thing you can do is to look at a piece of glass through a polariscope, to see spots that were heated without annealing.

With the steel from a straight razor, I don't think that cryogenic treatment would have much of an effect on properly tempered steel, as it would only make it less likely to warp unevenly, which doesn't seem to be much of an issue. Also, I think the process of honing and stropping would probably heat the edge up enough that the whole process would be moot anyway. Moly fusion might be very interesting, though, as many riflegoers use it to harden and slick up the bore of their barrels for increased accuracy......

Originally Posted by PapaBull

I'd heat it for at least 2 hours at 450, too and would probable go up to 500 for 2 hours. Bad things happen to gun barrells with brittle steel. And even worse things could happen to the shooter of such a barrell.

I once read a story about a guy who was shooting a .357, and the first bullet lodged in the barrel for some reason.
He couldn't find a hit mark on his target, but decided to fire the rest of the bullets anyway.

The article came with a picture of the barrel, sawn in half along the length.


To this day I am still amazed the barrel didn't explode.
I don't remember the brand name, but it was a high-end gun.

I guess that proves the need for good steel where it matters.

Originally Posted by Kavall

That's the deal right there, often Cryoing something properly heat treated has an "academic" level of improvement, aka one so small that for all practical purposes it's pointless. However in a high competition, nearly no limit budget application, it becomes a matter of "If we didn't do it and we lose there was always SOMETHING more we could do"

Razors? Simple.. "We need something to set us apart. We cryo our parts!" Does it help maybe, marginally, but it might sell more. And if they can justify to the consumer that it's worth the extra cost then it is worth the extra cost to the company.

A good example of this is Hart barrels one of the leading barrel makers out there "

.... Does cryo-treating reduce stress in Hart Rifle Barrels?

Cryo-treating steel has been in practice for many years to reduce stress in metal, and is very effective in some metals. The Crucible Specialties , Inc. 416R stainless steel we use to manufacture barrels is virtually unaffected by cryo-treating. Crucible's metallurgist have advised us that cryo-treating has no effect on 416R stainless steel. We have also independently tested several barrels and have been unable to detect any difference in the steel. We offer this service, as several of our customers believe in it and feel it gives them a competitive edge. The final choice is yours as to whether you feel this service is necessary.

As you can see, in their case they offer the service, but flatly state they don't find much of a difference in doing it.

In my experience with rifle barrels and cryo'ed barrels. In SOME cases you can lap a barrel to a smoother finish with a cryo'ed barrel. Personally I would much rather spend the money truing the action, or going to a larger contour and fluting the barrel. A bit off topic but just my general experiences.

I find this post a little disingenuous.

The Hart people state that cryoing one particular steel- 416R does not make an improvement, with other steels with different levels of alloying elements different levels of improvement may be seen. Also I'd wager they take a damn sight more care heat treating gun barrels than was taken with some razors, particualrly when heat treating was less exact. The less good the heat treat the more improvement may be seen after cryo treatment.

And going way off topic... If by "moly fusion" you are referring to moly coated bullets and barrels. I don't know a benchrest or varmint shooter that has found an accuracy improvement from moly. Some have found a longer period of accuracy between cleanings, but no actual improvement in accuracy. I still feel a well made barrel with an extremely smooth finish (read as lapped correctly) nets more consistant results. This comes from 20 years in competitive shooting.

I probably should have been a bit more specific, as my experience of Moly Fusion is limited to the rimfire world... it does aid in cleaning, but there are numerous reports of velocity and accuracy improvements if you run a search on RimfireCentral.com . Also, Moly Fusion is different from ordinary moly, as it's a treatment formulated to bond to the metal itself, baked into the metal you apply it to in your own oven (a new way to irritate SWMBO: finding a gun barrel and misc action parts in the oven )

Anyway, it helps to reduce friction on surfaces it's applied to, which *can* net a velocity gain in some firearms. 17 HMR and 17 Mach 2 have seen dramatic results due in part to their high muzzle velocity and very narrow bores. While a professionally lapped barrel will get you excellent results, the velocity gained by reducing friction can compliment that in its own right.

Back on topic: I'd still love to see what the same treatment will do to a razor edge. Being that I'm still new to straights myself, I don't have a real basis for comparison. But you can be sure I'll try it on a vintage razor once I have a bit more skill and experience