Thread: Metallurgy of old steel vs. new forged blades

Honestly, I think if there actually is a loss of Quality, the only reason is the market. Since straight razors became obsolete, it´s not really economical, to produce the steel that is fitted exactly for straight razors, so, as a SR-maker, you have to take the best you can get at a decent price. Back in the days, tungsten was often used in fine-grained steels. Vanadium has similar qualities, but vanadium steels don´t get so fine-grained. Anyway, vanadium is a lot cheaper than tungsten, so…

tok

Originally Posted by tiddle

there just seemed to be a different feel to the steel, the Dovos just felt lighter and more fragile, and just didn't hold the same edge like my others. This could explain some things.

Reminds me of the old Case XX pocket knives versus the newer production. Take a 'TestedXX' (1920-1940) and it has a more elegant grind than the later knives. Thinner and more shapely. Even more than the 'Case XX' (1940-1965) which ain't half bad and the XX are more so than the XX USA ('65-70) and the later dot models. By the 1980s they look almost crude in comparison, though they are good knives. Same with old Martin and Gibson guitars, S&W and Colt handguns, Winchester, and other, rifles.

Pre-WWII the wages were so low that the companies could afford to allow more workmanship. At least I've read that as accounting for part of the difference. As wages went up productivity had to keep pace or the companies would have went belly up .... as many did. So something had to be sacrificed and it seems to have been the visual quality. Another thing with those older items, the guys that were doing it had probably served lengthy apprenticeships and been at it a long while. When they retired the crew that replaced them didn't have the same level of expertise. ..... Maybe ......

Totally irrelevant, but I have a gouge from my great uncle, who had a wagon factory in the late 1800s. It's easily the best gouge I have--I sharpen it, it's the sharpest one I have, and it's sharp forever. I always wondered why, and the idea that they were working with pure iron, not a composite of scrap, is an appealing one.

The story of the guy going out to the yard to pick a tin can here, an engine block there--the obvious take-away from that is that the first time someone does that, they're getting pure stuff. The person who's doing it 50 years later is getting everyone else's composite mess, the derivative of the same process, generations later.

Suddenly a Tim Zowada blade (or, alternately, something 150 years old) is seeming like a really good idea, isn't it?

Hello All,

Thanks a lot for you comments and detailed explanations - it was great fun to read!
That the reason is the "curse" of recycling and is always "potentiating" sounds very plausible.
(do not understand me wrong - in principle recycling is the right way-IMHO... maybe not for Str8-steel
I also understand now the guy who is looking for old train axes to hammer out his knifes ( I saw this on TV). It is also interesting that "hardening process" must be learned/adapted again... - but it is like everything in modern times - compromise of money- or at least "money" is tipping the scale. If our community is getting bigger and bigger... we may become interesting for the steel mills...
Best Regards
Hajo

Scientific methods aren't necessarily superior to traditional craftmanship. Iron ore from different origins have different "contaminants", viz trace elements.

I have been told that modern iron is made using both iron ore and scrap iron and scrap metal, where they used pure iron ore in the past.

A chemist’s job is to locate or design an original formula that performs within specifications. Then modify that formula with less costly raw materials to increase profit margins and still remain in spec.

Steel quality changes with varying standards and techniques, over time. Some is better, some is worse, as Mike said above. It also can vary considerably from batch to batch, from the same manufacturer.

While the quality of the steel is very important, the skill and integrity of the craftsman making the product is more important. Compare the products from those at the top of their craft to those who just don't care. You will see huge discrepencies in quality, form and function, even when the exact same materials are used. You will see this in any industry, trade, or craft.

Curious,Is it possible, on a small scale to buy pure known ingrediants and make your own steel?

I would just like to expand on what Tim Zowada posted. I do agree with what he said about the craftsman fashioning the end product. I would just like to add that this applies to how the raw materials are produced too.

Modern scientific automated mass production does not lend itself to craftsmanship in the production of the raw materials need by the end user craftsman. There are not many workers left in highly automated factories that could produce a product if the automation went off line. They have lost the "craft" of producing the product. They have lost the experience and incentive as well as the need and possibility to produce a superior product which exceeds the bare minimum specs called for.

Bob

Well, my opinion isn't worth much at all here, since I'm completely new to straight razors. However, I've often been engaged in a similar discussion regarding woodworking tools, where similar observations about steel quality hold true.

I've been told that the main issue is quality control. Metallurgy was much more hit and miss over a century ago. However, they would discard the misses. I've also heard about the purity of the raw materials being higher, but that that does not mean that equally high quality steel cannot be produced today - it simply requires more work to remove contaminants from lower purity sources. Few foundries have any reason to do that work.

High carbon oil-quenched steels of fantastic quality are still produced today, but only in small amounts by certain high-end manufacturers who have any incentive to do the work.

Strangely enough, I'd say that the finest O1 steel tools I own are Titan chisels manufactured in Tasmania in the mid seventies. They are better than any Sheffield or Swedish steel I have ever tried (except may the Swedish EA Berg, who might even have made razors too - not sure - softer but with a finer edge).

EDIT : I've just discovered that EA Berg made straight razors. Ooooh man I want one now. Maybe three razors (two straights and a SE) isn't enough? Can this be the first stage of the dreaded RAD?