Thread: Metallurgy of old steel vs. new forged blades

I also come from a woodworking background and have worked with sharp blades for 40+years. Hammer forged blades are stronger and hold and maintain an edge better. I can not say if any razor manufacturers hammer forge these days. The hammer process aliens the grain structure to the actual shape of the edge. Grinding from a blank of steel does not.
Forging - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Originally Posted by notshaveready

I also come from a woodworking background and have worked with sharp blades for 40+years. Hammer forged blades are stronger and hold and maintain an edge better. I can not say if any razor manufacturers hammer forge these days. The hammer process aliens the grain structure to the actual shape of the edge. Grinding from a blank of steel does not.
Forging - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'll be interested to see what metallurgist experts say about this very old controversy. I was talking to a custom bladesmith about this very thing .... hammer forging versus stock removal ..... and he said it is not that important. He hammer forges some and not others depending on certain variables. He said the heat treat is the more important issue. I personally prefer the hammer forged blade for the romance of it.

There have been videos posted of Dovo's workman using power hammers to forge straight razors .... maybe Theirs-Issard as well IIRC. Also a wonderful vid of a British man who worked for one, or more, of the large Sheffield mfgs, hammer forging pocket knife blades in a small cottage.

I've had custom blades that were made with stock removal (razors) and some that were hammer forged. I could not detect a difference in the end result. YMMV.

Originally Posted by EdwardRoland

EDIT : I've just discovered that EA Berg made straight razors. Ooooh man I want one now. Maybe three razors (two straights and a SE) isn't enough? Can this be the first stage of the dreaded RAD?

Many an E.A. Berg is on offer here: rakkniv - Tradera.com Most vendors will answer questions in English, quality of stuff on Tradera is on average better than on ebay.com

Originally Posted by pixelfixed

Curious,Is it possible, on a small scale to buy pure known ingrediants and make your own steel?

You can melt and alloy steel with charcoal, a couple of flowerpots and a hairdryer. I think a problem may be that some additives may require controlled atmosphere and that's going to be hard to do in a backyard setup.

I am no metallurgy expert, but I will add my 2¢. I was watching this show where they were trying to improve old weapons, with new technology. They had an episode on katana making. They forge one with the traditional and ritual Japanese way with iron from a volcanic vein (lots of impurities). The modern katana was made by hammering a steel-vanadium rod. Turns out that for the intended purpose the traditional katana was better even when the iron was off lower quality. Having said that I think the reason for older razors are better off at least perceived to be better, is because manufacturing was better and it paid to invest the man hours to make a better products. I think that modern technology could yield a better steel. The question is, would it be commercially viable.

Originally Posted by rocarule

Having said that I think the reason for older razors are better off at least perceived to be better,

Having had a slue, like a couple of hundred razors, come and some go, I think some older razors are better than some new razors but, IME some new razors are as good as any old ones and some may even be better. Just my impression from honing a bunch of them and shaving with them.

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

... about this very old controversy.

The time the steel mill has forged and rolled the 40 ton slab of steel down to the starting piece (4 inch by 24 inch by 20 feet) or rolled it down to 1/4 inch the typical starting point for a knife or razor, the amount of hand forging that arranges or rearranges any grain structure in that small a piece is insignificant for any claims of improved strength. This does not mean that if properly examined that the grain structure cannot be seen to flow around the corners so to speak where the maker manipulated the material, but the grain structure of steel does not function the same way that the grain structure in wood does.

I agree that the heat treatment is much more critical. I also agree with Jimmy that subjectively, at that fine an edge, it is doubtful that a human being could feel such a difference.

Eod7: your example is grossly oversimplified and on a practical basis of the thermal mass needed to make steel at that scale will be exceptionally inefficient. If you are referencing examples of using thermite to reduce iron in a couple of garden pots, well, the show is spectacular and makes more of a mess than a bloom.

Rocarule: I know all the American smiths who have participated in the history shows, and some of the Japanese as well. For the most part the producers have so muddled the information and the hype it is difficult to extract anything but sizzle when you have been looking for steak. I have said this before: I would fear a master swordsman (any school) armed with the most destitute rusty dull lawnmower blade (or a wooden stick for a really good one) more than a novice armed with the finest sword (metallurgical or otherwise) on the planet. Cutting is always about technique, the edge contributes an infinitesimal amount. as I said, the producers do not illuminate much of critical import.

If you shave better with old or new steel because you are more confident.... does the steel or the blade matter?

Seriously guys, I also like the "magic" behind the old ways, but, there are no conspiracies behind steel making. If nothing else, there is a huge competition.
The small differences in steel quality do completely change steel's characteristics. It's not about "it feels better" and "I prefer it". If there was anything wrong with steels impurities concentration, we wouldn't be talking about what it feels better now, but what looks, and if it can-can't perform like a metal now.
In 21st century, regardless of how old is the sharp instrument you use, percentage or carbon and heat treatment is 99.9% of what makes you like or dislike what you use.
And, I know about dendritic carbides and carbon nanotubes that can be present in vintage steels, but the rule is, if the blacksmith makes them in small scale, the newer and more expensive, the better.

Hello,

I had some discussion with Mr. Wacker about my new "best tradition" regarding this topics here. In Principle statements are the same as already said in this thread. Purity of regular steel is affected by "recycling". Producing same "pure" steel as in the past is possible but (very) expensive and you have to order too huge quantity as it can be used up by a small(er) company. Most importance therefore has to adapt/develop hardening and temper process to the "new" (less pure) steel.

Best Regads
Hajo

Originally Posted by hajo

... Purity of regular steel is affected by "recycling". Producing same "pure" steel as in the past is possible but (very) expensive and you have to order too huge quantity as it can be used up by a small(er) company. Most importance therefore has to adapt/develop hardening and temper process to the "new" (less pure) steel.

A succinct summary of the problem, and good information from someone who knows the business.

The "new steel" is not of any less quality in terms of the chemical specifications. For structural work, it only has to hold up buildings or bridges. The minor chemistry will hardly affect a multi-tonne structure. For regular cutlery/razor/knife work, it might not matter if the whole blade is hardened as the new recipe for hardening will compensate for the non-specific chemistry. It may be of consequence when differential hardening or changes in the grain structure, like dendrites, are desired in the finished piece. Either way, the decision comes down to what the maker intends in the final product or how they were taught, and how the end user perceives the those choices as reflected in their perception of value.

It's an interesting process with a wide spectrum of variables. Not that the wunderstahls aren't interesting, but I'm still trying to learn to dance with very simple carbon steel.