Thread: Tamahagane nihon kamisori

Originally Posted by pixelfixed

Not weird at All,I believe the japanese consider it to be a national Treasure.

At the price point they ask for razors made with the stuff that seems to be a accurate assessment on the part of the J-gov.

Originally Posted by tok

If using Tamahagane for other things than swords is illegal – then why cant you buy japanese Tamahagane in it´s raw form from a german vendor?
Japanischer Schwertstahl - Tamahagane | DICTUM GmbH - Mehr als Werkzeug

tok

The pictures look right, and look exactly like some samples I have been gifted that I have on my library shelf in the shop.

Somehow a supply developed, of which we know nothing of the provenance, and that website is taking advantage of it. Normally a swordsmith would start with 5Kg of tamahagane to end up with a 1.5 Kg sword. I'll let you do the math. So you end up with a valuable sword and how much of that valuable tamahagane is now slag/scale laying on the shop floor?

The other problem is that the purchased tamahagane may show up and not appear anything like the photos. In that case, my suspicion is that a lesser grade of steel made it out of the supply restrictions. I've never denied that you can buy tamahagane outside Japanese restrictions (I've known of the German connection for years), but the uncertainty of source and quality and the simple economic impracticality of that ability raise some serious questions. If you have the money, don't mind the cost of the product wasted, I'm sure you can find a smith to weld it up into a sword or a razor. As has been said elsewhere, this steel does not work like modern steels and I would not send this project to someone without that kind of experience for the money you're going to spend.

there are tamahagane razors by other makers not as dear to buy

its only the Iwasakis that command top price

Originally Posted by Mike Blue

The other problem is that the purchased tamahagane may show up and not appear anything like the photos. In that case, my suspicion is that a lesser grade of steel made it out of the supply restrictions. I've never denied that you can buy tamahagane outside Japanese restrictions (I've known of the German connection for years), but the uncertainty of source and quality and the simple economic impracticality of that ability raise some serious questions. If you have the money, don't mind the cost of the product wasted, I'm sure you can find a smith to weld it up into a sword or a razor. As has been said elsewhere, this steel does not work like modern steels and I would not send this project to someone without that kind of experience for the money you're going to spend.

I´m not planning to purchase this stuff or a Razor made from it (at least not for the prices asked… I have to say that, by looks alone, the western style Iwasakis with flat point are amongst the most beautiful razors i´ve ever seen).
And I don´t really believe, that this kind of steel is that superior to modern steels. There are so many things playing part in shaving, that I´m sure that most people couldn´t tell the difference between Tamahagane or "regular" steel razors. If you know it, of course you will shave better. Self-fulfilling Prophecy(But, in the end, why not?).
What many people don´t take into account, is the fact that the Steel suited for Swords isn´t as suited for Razors. Carbon content in a japanese sword is around 0.5-0.6 %, let´s not take into account, that (nearly?) all Swords made from Japan are made from different steels with different carbon contents.
You can make a razor from 0.6 % C steel, but it doesn´t really make sense. It´ll become dull pretty soon, and since you are not going to hit anything with it (except your sink, if you´re not careful), you don´t need to worry about brittleness. Steels suited for razors start at 1.0 % C, up to 1.5 %C.
Unrefined Tamahagane can be anywhere between 0.0 - 2.5%C. It is the Bladesmith`s job, to pick the pieces, that are suited for the task, and refine them, either before starting to weld them together and forming the Blade(-->Oroshigane), or by letting carbon burn while folding the steel. When you make a Sword, you´ll treat the steel in a different way, than when you make a razor.

Damn, I think i´ve lost the point, I wanted to make… Ah, well. Wrote it, so i´ll post it anyway

tok

Originally Posted by tok

And I don´t really believe, that this kind of steel is that superior to modern steels. There are so many things playing part in shaving, that I´m sure that most people couldn´t tell the difference between Tamahagane or "regular" steel razors. If you know it, of course you will shave better.
tok

This is correct, but if the Tamahagane is prepared correctly it becomes really good steel, I think I may even use the work "special" compared to anything else. I mean find me any steel that is used for razors that can get HRC 65-66 and is flexible and does not chip when honed, and produces one of the smoothest edges you would experience (in the same league with Filramonica and other famous shavers). I have a western Iwasaki Tamahagane and from experience it is a really special piece of work. It is hard to understand how can a razor be worth as much as an Iwasaki but then once you try it you understand why.
I am not sure about Kamisori, I have never tried a tamahagane one, so I can't comment how it compares to others, but the western ones are something to talk about.

Originally Posted by mainaman

I have a western Iwasaki Tamahagane and from experience it is a really special piece of work.

Ok, I´m seriously green with envy! As I wrote earlier, if I could get one…

But, looking from a more, well, let´s call it "scientific" point of view (on a hobbyists basis), there is no reason, why a Tamahagane Razor should perform any better, than, lets say, a Razor made from SC145 (super clean 1.45 % C steel), as long as you have the means to keep the grain small (let me just drop this: Information Bridge: DOE Scientific and Technical Information - Sponsored by OSTI) and harden it the right way (both, actually).

To be honest, the knowledge alone, where the razor was made from, appeals to me big time. I wouldn´t even need the idea, that it´s performance is superior, to like it more than a regularly made razor.

And being a fan of Heinz von Foerster(Heinz von Foerster - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) and the constructivist idea in general(Constructivist epistemology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia), I don´t think there´s a definite answer, anyway. And there doesn´t need to be one

tok

Originally Posted by Bruno

The tamahagane ones?
Because those are pretty expensive, tamahagane being more expensive than gold.

yes the last one I saw last week for sale was 65000 yen starting price NOS condition at an auction. Not sure what it sold for but usually they go for 60000-80000 yen.

Originally Posted by tok

Ok, I´m seriously green with envy! As I wrote earlier, if I could get one…

But, looking from a more, well, let´s call it "scientific" point of view (on a hobbyists basis), there is no reason, why a Tamahagane Razor should perform any better, than, lets say, a Razor made from SC145 (super clean 1.45 % C steel), as long as you have the means to keep the grain small (let me just drop this: Information Bridge: DOE Scientific and Technical Information - Sponsored by OSTI) and harden it the right way (both, actually).

To be honest, the knowledge alone, where the razor was made from, appeals to me big time. I wouldn´t even need the idea, that it´s performance is superior, to like it more than a regularly made razor.

And being a fan of Heinz von Foerster(Heinz von Foerster - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) and the constructivist idea in general(Constructivist epistemology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia), I don´t think there´s a definite answer, anyway. And there doesn´t need to be one

tok

True but the the thing abuot those razors is they are hardened so much yet so flexible and without chipping issues, which allows for a lot better edge retention.
In the end it is a lot of collectors value in the price right now, but from what I was told back in the day when they were produced those razors were still very expensive. The prices were and are not nowhere near what the OP post was referring though.

Originally Posted by mainaman

True but the the thing abuot those razors is they are hardened so much yet so flexible and without chipping issues, which allows for a lot better edge retention.

Fair enough, but as you can see, it´s not the material alone. Give a piece of Tamahagane to me and it´ll most likely become crap. It´s the skill of the smith, combined with decades of knowledge, how to handle it. Good, clean steel, when treated the right way, will become as fine grained, as steel can get. And finer grain means better flexibility and less chipping.

tok

well, whatever, id like to 'see' an Iwasaki tamahagane but i dont want to afford one,

tho i could prolly sell something and get a swedish-steel one ..

i do want a tamahagane razor, not necessarily a modern one