Thread: Extra Hollow vs Hollow Grind

Originally Posted by Badgister

A well executed extra hollow singing razor is a marvellous thing. With the right technique they shave beautifully and in my experience, provide the closest shaves.

I have yet to encounter a modern production razor that has a grind like that of my vintage singing razors.

Indeed, the modern variety are stiffer and I found the Bergischer Lowe very stiff which is why I ended up selling it a few years ago.

I have to agree, it is not cost effective to produce such blades. Some get discarded in the process and the craftsmen able to execute such a quality hollowing are few and likely an endangered species.

Yes, that old W&B sure sang a sweet song, definitely noticed the blade "stuck" much closer to my face, and I also agree with comments above that it is not a grind of razor I would advise a beginner to start with. More and more I understand why a 5/8th 1/2 hollow ground, round tip, is an excellent blade to start with, IMO.

But yes, a superb blade, and again, the tremendous thought of shaving with a blade that is 150+ years old still amazes and fascinates me.....

Hello,

I have a extra hollow, smoothest most forgiving razor I have. However I have found the change in width of a blade may throw my dexterity off a little. Usually don't take long to adjust but that may be long enough to result in a cut if I don't get comfortable to the new width of blade before making a difficult pass.

That may be a factor in your problem, you may also find the extra hollow you have forces you to use a different grip that your unaware of? That would be like trying to write with your off hand. I could see how something like that could make me slip up a little.

Nathaniel.

I use many sizes & grinds in rotation but I always use a new blade exclusively for a week to get used to it, and I agree that it is more the feed back that makes the most difference to each experience I think,
My nephew notice a similar thing with the feed back when he goes from his shavette to the full hollow.

If going by the the grind chart in the database, personally I would favour the full hollow and the bellied hollow over the extra hollow. However, I would call the 'bellied hollow' extra hollow, because it has been ground hollow twice. Once for the main hollow, the second one below the belly i.e. longitudinal stabiliser.

A belly would have to be more pronounced than that for me to refer to it as a belly, as well. Like the ones I've seen on some Sheffield razors, which are diamond shaped rather than round (the bellies).

As far as I know for what is referred to as the bellied hollow, special grinding equipment is required with different sized grinding wheels. Of course freehanding is an option, but that would likely result in inconsistent results.

As I understand it, the reason for adding the horizontal stabiliser (and probably earlier on the more pronounced diamond shaped belly) is to be able to have a blade with plenty of flex, but not too much i.e. to limit the flex of a (fully) hollow ground blade. I think this also enables to grind extra hollow beyond a certain width (I can't remember ever having seen a longitudinal stabilizer on a blade below 5/8 in width).

I think it is possible to have a razor that is (ground) too thin, because this would result in an extreme flex which is much more prone to damage the skin. It will shave, but I believe not very comfortably. I have a Giesen & Forsthoff Adoration (with a longitudinal stabiliser) that is pushing it in terms of flex. It can give me a great shave, but I have to be very careful with my shaving angle and pressure, much more so than with most of my other Solingen extra/full hollows (i.e. with the longitudinal stabiliser). I have heard similar things about some Bresduck/Bresnick production razors. Well, at least one: the Otto Deutsch "Hans". I have heard it being called "almost too hollow for comfort".

I'm convinced there is a golden degree of hollowing, just as there is for bevel angle (between 15° and 20°). Except that that you will still be able to comfortably shave with less hollowing, but not with more. Maybe 'maximum degree of hollowing' is more accurate.

Thing is though, I get consistently closer shaves (that are still comfortable) with my hollow ground Solingen blades than my near-wedge Sheffield blades. So maybe there is a 'golden degree of hollowing'. I do think however that this would result in arguing preferences and semantics, which is pointless in the end. So let's say: for me there is.

It really is not complicated - the belly is an artifact from the double grinding, and double grinding is used to achieve higher degree of hollowing, although it doesn't guarantee it.

That chart in the library that distinguishes bellied from extra hollow is just wrong. As far as I can tell it is not possible to create the level that is considered 'extra hollow' through single grinding and I personally haven't seen such razor.

The standard dovo and TI production is basically hollow grind razors with double grind and they have a belly but are fairly stiff. The prima klang and the bergischer löwe are the extra full hollow razors in the dovo line up. In TI the evide sonnant extra is supposed to be the extra hollow and it used to be in the old days, but not in the current production.

Very interesting Pithor and gugi!! Thanks!

I think Pithor came very close to explaining my, "cursed" Double Duck, it is extra-hollow without a doubt, the blade is tissue thin. Have never seen a blade as absolutely thin as that DD Goldedge compared even to the W&B Celebrated Extra-Hollow, there is a noticable visual difference, and I felt right away the difference between using a W&B Hollow vs. the Extra Hollow, was a great shave, no damage or bites, but it required a different hand.

This I can fully understand, for me at least, the idea of "getting used to a new razor" in regards the W&B Extra Hollow.

So, I think that the DD is ground very thin, and I guess will require a significant difference in the way I use it in order to be successful with it. Others may be verycomfortable with an ultra thin grind, I guess in the end, it will be how much effort do I want to put in to tame this beast.

I guess the next question would be, as Pithor mentioned, are the DD's that are extra hollow's known for this tendency to be extremely thinly ground? Guess I should try to get a pic of my DD blade...

Thanks!

Phrank-

I think you should just give up on the Duck and send it to me. My case has a vacancy.

I have one DD Goldedge and two Special No 1s that are very thinly ground might even qualify for extra hollow, dunno. I have not seen an old W&B, pre 1891 and not a regrind, that was extra hollow ground in the sense that DDs might be called. OTH I have not seen a huge amount of either razor makes. I don't think back in the day the Sheffield makers had the capability to do extra hollow grinding as we know it today.

Bob

Originally Posted by gugi

[...]That chart in the library that distinguishes bellied from extra hollow is just wrong. As far as I can tell it is not possible to create the level that is considered 'extra hollow' through single grinding and I personally haven't seen such razor[...]

That was pretty much what I figured as well. I merely referred to the chart in order to illustrate clearly what I am referring to.

Yea, got a couple of American made bellied razors and they are different again from the DDs. I always guessed that creating a bellied blade was done to make the thinnest edge possible while maintaining a reasonable amount of rigidity in the blade.

Bob