Thread: Smooth Vs. Sharp

I don't know what the eBay guy finished that razor on, but, to resurrect this thread, I feel compelled to say this: smooth/sharp does not have to be an either/or. Doesn't matter what the razor is finished on: a fine Jnat, S30K, Escher, diamond on felt, CBN, etc; provided the honer knows how to get the best out of his choice of finishing medium & provided the shaver doesn't use too much pressure (not at all implying the OP is), it is very possible to have both in the same package. This notion of having to pick one or the other is kind of a myth, really.

On edges finished on my Oozuku, I sometimes catch myself using the angle/pressure I would use on a coticule finished edge, wondering why it fees a bit aggressive & why the hair cutting is not completely effortless. I then back off on both angle & pressure (counterintuitively, it almost seems) & then I don't even feel the hairs being cut. At all. Nor do I feel the Clubman afterwards in that spot--at all.

Of course, some finishes are easier on the skin than others, but just because a razor is very sharp doesn't mean it necessarily has to be harsh also. Just food for thought.

I'm not entirely sure anyone was suggesting there was any sort of trade-off between sharp and smooth. In my mind that is the goal of honing a razor and always has been.

These are just my thoughts, and could be entirely off the mark, but they are what I work off.

Sharpness has to do with how close both sides of the bevel can be made to meet and in a certain sense can be quantified if you had an accurate enough measuring device.

Smoothness is a more subjective term. Certainly smoothness must necessarily contain an element of sharpness (an edge that is not sharp will most certainly not be smooth, unless it is a complete butter knife edge, but I am assuming we are not talking about trivial cases). Smoothness can also have to do with the depth of the scratch patterns on each bevel, and I tend to think this translates to the gouges that present themselves at the actual edge due to those scratch patterns, perhaps moreso than what is actually happening on the sides themselves.

And of course one man's smoothness can be another's harsh edge, and vice-versa.

Where I differ a bit from the conventional way of thinking is that I tend to think you can keep making the edge finer (sharper) as you move up the grits. I definitely do not subscribe to the idea that what you have after the 1 or 4K hone is the best you'll get in terms of how closely you can make those sides meet. As long as you are abrading, no matter how slowly, you are moving those sides closer together. It might be negligible in comparison to what happens off a low grit hone, but it is happening.

So as a philosophical thing I do not tend to make a distinction between sharp and smooth, because to me going for sharp does not end once you go higher than a 4K hone. But that is just me and I certainly do not claim any monopoly on, nor mastery of, razor honing theory.

James.

Glad that you got to the point that you can distinguish what "smooth" is. It takes a certain amount of subtle technique to be able to gain and appreciate a really nicely honed razor. Now the real problem arises and that is how are you going to balance keenness and smoothness in your own honing process! Everyone has their own style in this regard and they can be very subtle. As you can see there are already different approaches being put forth but you will find the edge that you like to use and nothing else really matters. Just kick back and enjoy the journey.

Just remember to keep your wits about you, it can get ugly!

Take Care,
Richard

Originally Posted by Jimbo

Where I differ a bit from the conventional way of thinking is that I tend to think you can keep making the edge finer (sharper) as you move up the grits. I definitely do not subscribe to the idea that what you have after the 1 or 4K hone is the best you'll get in terms of how closely you can make those sides meet. As long as you are abrading, no matter how slowly, you are moving those sides closer together. It might be negligible in comparison to what happens off a low grit hone, but it is happening.

So as a philosophical thing I do not tend to make a distinction between sharp and smooth, because to me going for sharp does not end once you go higher than a 4K hone. But that is just me and I certainly do not claim any monopoly on, nor mastery of, razor honing theory.

James.

I agree totally. I have long disagreed w/ the "sharpness ends @ 4k & all the rest is just smoothness" idea: if that were true, why is a S30k or Jnat finisher edge sharper (in terms of beard cutting ability) than one finished off a Norton or coticule? Why do the finer finished edges shave closer WTG than the 8k edges if the difference is really nothing but smoothness? Does a 1k or 4k edge shave beard hair effortlessly? Of course not, which is why we generally don't stop there.

Of course, as we smooth the bevel planes, cutting friction is reduced (the blade slides more freely through the hair shaft & acts sharper), but I do think that the bevel continues to get thinner as we go (maybe only very slightly, but still). Some softer steels have a reputation for not like the finish of say a S30k--"can't handle the sharp" is a phrase I've heard used many times. If these superfine hones did nothing but polish rather than refine, presumably that wouldn't be a factor, but it seems to be.

I personally think that a lot of what some people perceive as being the "smoothness" of an 8k & up (as opposed to shaving off of the 4k) is actually sharpness--the razor feels smooth because it cuts the hair effortlessly, rather than pulling slightly. Sort of a much milder version of a dull razor pulling, if you will.

An engineer would call you correct...

Numbers wise they fall out close to this

Hair cuts at about .50 microns, razor edges depending on the steel and grind max out between .37 Microns and .47 Microns.. You hit the .50 Micron at 1k level easily, by the time you get into the 4k level you have achieved near the max of the edge at the 8k level you are about at 99% of as good as that blade is ever going to get.. After that you are striving for that last 1%, of which 99% is probably all personal opinion anyway...

*all numbers come from the Voerhaven(sp*) papers, the percentages are mine, note that I said grit "levels" this has nothing to do with actual grit, it has to do with Bevel, Sharpen, Polish, and Finish levels of honing SR's*

So yes, you are by engineering standards, correct, that even with finishing you are still "sharpening" but you are really splitting hairs with that analogy (pun intended)

If somebody is trading off smooth vs. sharp in my book they don't know what they are doing.
Any given razor has a limit of the edge it can take. Beyond that the edge breaks down and it is not smooth at all. The goal of honing is to get as close to that limit as possible without crossing it.

An example would be a feather blade (the ones that go into the feather razors, not the DE ones which I have no experience with). These blades are as smooth and sharp as it goes. They also need nice and light touch, otherwise you'll be cutting the skin instead of the hairs.

Originally Posted by Jimbo

Where I differ a bit from the conventional way of thinking is that I tend to think you can keep making the edge finer (sharper) as you move up the grits. I definitely do not subscribe to the idea that what you have after the 1 or 4K hone is the best you'll get in terms of how closely you can make those sides meet. As long as you are abrading, no matter how slowly, you are moving those sides closer together. It might be negligible in comparison to what happens off a low grit hone, but it is happening.

So as a philosophical thing I do not tend to make a distinction between sharp and smooth, because to me going for sharp does not end once you go higher than a 4K hone.

James.

+1 My thoughts exactly!!

Boy....you did some digging for this thread....2011...

Originally Posted by nessmuck

Boy....you did some digging for this thread....2011...

Good reading though....

Wow! some of you old timers still scraping skin? Still shaving every day with a straight?