Thread: Harsh Shave

Hi gents,

I just finished my first restore on a Genco. It's not a full restore, just simple unpin, cleaned up the blade, shorten the scale and re-pinning.

I decided to try honing the razor today. my setup: norton 220/1k, norton 4k/8k, and naniwa 12k. I used 1 layer of tape throughout the honing process, changing tape on each hone.

norton 1k - setting the bevel and smooth out micro dents
- 2 set of circles (20) with pressure
- 20 x stroke heel leading with pressure
+ It popped leg hairs at this point but I could still feel the dents on tnt
- 1 set of circles (20) with pressure
- 10 x stroke heel leading with pressure
+ tnt was smooth, but i noticed some skipping on the thumb nail??
- 1 set of circles (20) with pressure
- 10 x stroke heel leading with pressure
- 2 set of circles (20) no pressure
- 20 x stroke heel leading no pressure

norton 4k / 8k, naniwa 12k
- 2 set of circles (20) with pressure
- 20 x stroke heel leading with pressure
- 2 set of circles (20) no pressure
- 20 x stroke heel leading no pressure

By norton 8k it passes hht all across the blade. After the naniwa, I stropped on balsa crox 20x, then leather 20x.

So I decided to take a shower and shave with it. The shave was harsh, I had a few days of growth, so the whiskers are quite long, but it tugs quite a bit. Stretching helps, but not alot. I finished two passes but it was getting painful so I stopped and rubbed some alum which burns.

Given it's only my 3rd straight shave, I'm pretty sure some of it will be my technique. My first two shave was with whippeddog razor, it was quite smooth then.

I had a look with 30x loupe and could not see the micro dents anymore. My question is, is it possible to have such a small dent that I can't see using the loupe but gives a harsh shave?

Also, when using circles on 8k and above, is there any point using pressure? My logic was using pressure to smooth out the scratches made by lower grit hone and then no pressure to polish.

Any comments is much appreciated.

Sy

To be fair, It'll be equal parts shave technique and honing ability. if you're only 3 shaves in, your technique just won't be up to it yet, especially changing razors. Please don't put too much stock in the HHT it's a parlour trick at worst and extremely subjjective at best. Sounds like you were pretty dilligent about the honing though.

First off, were you checking with the loupe all the way through and after each set of strokes and circles? and did you use the magic marker test? also something i've learned to ask is "are your hones properly lapped?"

You probably don't want to use pressure at any stage with these, some people will advocate miniscule amounts, some will advocate a fair amount when removing chips on a low grit. i will when using couple of layers of tape to match the honing angle when honing with no tape and miniscule pressure, but only when get rid of chips. remember the hollower the grind and the more pressure you use, the greater the deflection on the blade and therefore the more work you have to do when using no pressure on the next stage up, which eventually will stop working as higher grits just polish as opposed to remove metal.

When you get the loop out do there look like there are any deeper scratches on the bevel than the rest? if so you haven't done enough work smoothing out the previous grit levels work. these can then manifest as uber microchips on the edge later on in the honing process

Hi Sy,

There are a couple things that stand out to me.

1) 20 laps on CrOx is a lot of laps. IME, I've burnt perfectly good edges using just 12 laps. I stick between 5 and 10 if I'm using it as a touchup or off the hones. It's entirely possible that you had a great edge and the CrOx took it away.

2) The Naniwa 12k is a fast cutting hone. If everything else has been done properly, I've found that 15 X strokes on the hardest steels will clear up 8k scratch marks. Usually, I stop at 10 and check. If I need another 5, I only do it after I've looked at the blade and given it a thumb pad test.

3) At the 8K and above, there is no need for pressure. Just the weight of the razor.


I'd try going back to the 4k and doing 5 really light x strokes, then about 20 light x's on the 8k. Test shave...comfy? Yes....go to leather strop. No....go back and do 10 more strokes on the 8k.

learn to push your 8k as far as it can go before you add the variables of a 12k and the CrOx. Check out the JaNorton thread. A bunch of people honed a whack load of razors last month using different techniques on the 4/8 combo. I bet you'll find some useful information in that thread.

I lapped my hones when I got them following gssixgun norton lapping video. It cleared the pencil grid quite evenly, the corners were not flat though, but since I read that it won't affect the honing, I stopped that that point.

Yes, I did check with loupe on each set of circles + x strokes.

I used magic marker test on the first/second set of circles to check if the hone is scratching evenly all across. Yes it did, however I did notice the bevel is not exactly even, one side is wider at the toe and narrowing to the heel, on the other side is wider at the heel and narrowing to the heel. I'm not sure what cause this.

Right now I can see some scratches on the bevel, but they look quite similar. Are the scratches supposed to be there at all or is it supposed to be mirror like? Also I see some black spots, are these rust? I dried the razor with paper towel after use and put some camellia oil.

Note taken on crox, no pressure on 8k and above, and the janorton. I have been following that thread.

I also noticed that I could not produce a nice stropping sound, maybe my technique is wrong?

Thanks again.

Sy

I've taken blades all the way from 1K to 30K and still had residual light scratching which did not affect the shave.

I'd simplify your process, drop the CrOx out of the equation, and that will give you a better idea of what's up.

I never use pressure anymore. Some recommend it. I just use more strokes.

Pressure can flex a hollow ground blade. I learned that the hard way.

There are so many things I want to help with. The difficulty is that we are now dealing with three major things in this post.

1) The fact that you have only used a straight 3 times. This is a huge barrier to a smooth and irritation free shave. It's going to take a lot of practice with a shave ready blade to get comfortable with your face

2) Stropping. A whole other can of worms.

3) Honing. oh man...

Based on all of this, here is my new suggestion:

Get a second or third razor. It can be an ebay'er if you're careful or something from the classifieds. Take the razor you have now and send it to someone to hone. A shave ready razor is a valuable learning tool in itself. Use this razor as a bench mark for a) your honing, which will be done on razors other than this one, and b) learn to shave and strop first.

Right now you are trying to tackle the world. Take it slow, and learn from your mistakes. One of those mistakes is trying to learn to shave and to hone simultaneously. Focus on the shave first.

I'm not trying to dissuade you from honing....just maybe not while you're learning other things. When you do get into honing, it's important to have a couple of razors to play with so that you're not banging your head against the wall when you mess up your daily shaver.

Originally Posted by Maxi

There are so many things I want to help with. The difficulty is that we are now dealing with three major things in this post.

1) The fact that you have only used a straight 3 times. This is a huge barrier to a smooth and irritation free shave. It's going to take a lot of practice with a shave ready blade to get comfortable with your face

2) Stropping. A whole other can of worms.

3) Honing. oh man...

Based on all of this, here is my new suggestion:

Get a second or third razor. It can be an ebay'er if you're careful or something from the classifieds. Take the razor you have now and send it to someone to hone. A shave ready razor is a valuable learning tool in itself. Use this razor as a bench mark for a) your honing, which will be done on razors other than this one, and b) learn to shave and strop first.

Right now you are trying to tackle the world. Take it slow, and learn from your mistakes. One of those mistakes is trying to learn to shave and to hone simultaneously. Focus on the shave first.

I'm not trying to dissuade you from honing....just maybe not while you're learning other things. When you do get into honing, it's important to have a couple of razors to play with so that you're not banging your head against the wall when you mess up your daily shaver.

Point taken for taking it slow. I'm just so darn excited and curious in learning all these.

I do have a shave ready razor from whippeddog and recently from johnmrson. So it won't affect my daily shave routine.

I'll take your advise and focus more on shave and then strop.

Sy

IMHO , you might want to go back to the 1k , and hone with "X" strokes , using only enough pressure to keep the edge in contact with the hone .
Do this until you feel the edge "biting" into the hone , you should feel a slight suction between the blade and the hone . You should be able to cut arm hair above skin level at this point .

Then go to the 4k , and repeat what you did on the 1k , until you feel the biting and suction .
Give it 5 "X" strokes on the 8k , and strop it and test shave .
If it shaves well , then give it 5 strokes on the 12k , strop it up , and shave with it .
If it doesn't , go back , and give it 5 more on the 8k .
If that doesn't work , go back to the 4k .
IME , honing is a matter of tuning in to the feedback you get from the razor and the hone , and how well you understand it . This takes time , you won't learn it overnight . But if you keep at it , you will succeed .

Two things I'd like to throw into the mix....

1. Put the 12k and chrome ox away for now. Don't use them until you can get a close and comfortable shave off the 8k.
2. I found that my Genco is made of harder steel than many of my other razors, and as such took twice as much effort to hone. You may want to take that into consideration.

Originally Posted by gnoils

Hi gents,

I just finished my first restore on a Genco.

norton 1k - setting the bevel and smooth out micro dents


Any comments is much appreciated.

Sy

You didn't Kill the edge..

After a restore or if there are Micro chips in the edge, you want to set the bevel, then kill the edge then reset the bevel and re-check the edge if the chips are still there repeat again..

You have to start at the bottom rung of the ladder with a clean edge, this makes sure that you do..Yes it takes longer, but you won't end up taking those micro chips to your face...


Not sure how to "Kill" the edge watch the vids in the JaNorton thread and go easy it doesn't take a bunch you are just evening up the very edge then re-setting



+1 with what Ryan and Nathan said too dropping the 12k and the CrOx will help eliminate variables


g