Thread: Douglas cutlery

Originally Posted by bishpick1

I hope I can finally lay an issue to rest. The bevel is a product of the edge angle and the thickness of the steel where the line between the spine and the edge intersect. It will naturally be wider on a near wedge, in fact a true wedge is all bevel.
Can anyone show me a pic of a NOS near wedge vintage with wide bevels ? I thought they were all hone worn 1/4 hollows.
I may be wrong on that, if not, I can't understand designing a razor based on a worn out geometry that would have worked perfectly on tough beards before it was worn out.

Neither is honing an issue, honing a wide bevel is exactly the same as a narrow one.
I find honing a narrow bevel much easier than a wide bevel. The stiction alone is a PITA with wide bevels.

..............

I think you missed this line. "Depending on the blade design some of these razors have heavier blades, as much as .007 not the .002 to .004 of vintage high carbon steel blade." or maybe it was this one, "In the end it comes down to a type of steel that will support a thicker blade profile allowing for a smoother cut through thicker beard, oh, and esthetics." I did not say these blades profile designs was based on vintage blades, quite the opposite. As I pointed out the steel is different and allows for design features that would have been a problem for the vintage blades. That problem would not have been honing it would have been edge chipping (dulling), this is why the worn out quarter hollows you mentioned dull so quickly and why you want to chunk them into the display case instead of using them. As far as the resistance to forward motion (the stiction) during the hone, I haven't really noticed a .030" (less than a 1/32") bevel sticking to the hone with undo force. Neither those who own them nor I seem to have had much difficulty maintaining them, and that in the end is the point. If you don't like the design that's fine my effort here was not to change your mind on that point but rather to point out the wide bevel was by design and not an error as some have maintained. Because I have no desire to simply argue I'll leave it at that.

I am completely ignorant when it comes to honing, especially given that I have never honed a razor. At least we all know how far down I am on the totem pole.

That aside, I would have to question the point of a wide bevel in some regard. I understand where you are coming from with "design features" and how having a hefty bevel would allow for a better degree of durability. However, I imagine whether or not you have a wide bevel or one pretty hollowed out, whacking the edge against anything will do damage. Sure, the thicker steel would have a better chance of having less damage, but the edge would still need attention.

Also, the bevel has to be thinned out to make a cutting edge. Having a wider bevel means initially having to put in more work to get the edge set right the first time. For someone like me who has no experience whatsoever, I would be at a complete loss as far as how to set it up right the first time. I suppose the argument could be made at that point that "Having a wider bevel is meant for experienced honemeisters", but if that were true I would expect to see wide bevels from the top makers of razors.

Again, I am an unlearned man. Call me a self-proclaimed knuckle dragger. I can't help but think about starting off with a wide bevel being on the same vein as trying to use the spine of a chef's knife to cut a tomato. With enough work and honing of the spine it could work, but why not just alter the initial step and use a surface that is more keen to taking an edge initially?

The razors come already beveled and shave ready I would not expect anyone to have to set a bevel on a new blade. As far as the eventual dulling issue that is another advantage to carbon-chromium steels they resists dulling because the thinnest part of the edge can flex without chipping or bending longer than high carbon steel can. Again, it’s spring steel. This is why the thicker blade profile is used, it’s a stiffer spring. Think “band saw” if you make a band saw blade from high carbon steel it will break very quickly, it can’t flex. However if you use carbon-chromium (what they are made of by the way) it will work for a long time because it can flex. It’s not as hard as tool steel but it is more forgiving of damage. The thinner blades made of this steel work just as well as high carbon, and they sing just like high carbon, but the thicker blade profile works smoother, with less flex. The high carbon blades were made thinner and thinner to spread the shock of the edge flexing and reduce edge damage. They became so thin they added the shoulder to prevent horizontal cracking. It was a compromise. With carbon-chromium there is no need for compromise, just make a thicker blade, no vertical crack, no horizontal cracks just a stiff long lasting edge.

Originally Posted by bishpick1

The razors come already beveled and shave ready I would not expect anyone to have to set a bevel on a new blade. As far as the eventual dulling issue that is another advantage to carbon-chromium steels they resists dulling because the thinnest part of the edge can flex without chipping or bending longer than high carbon steel can. Again, it’s spring steel. This is why the thicker blade profile is used, it’s a stiffer spring. Think “band saw” if you make a band saw blade from high carbon steel it will break very quickly, it can’t flex. However if you use carbon-chromium (what they are made of by the way) it will work for a long time because it can flex. It’s not as hard as tool steel but it is more forgiving of damage. The thinner blades made of this steel work just as well as high carbon, and they sing just like high carbon, but the thicker blade profile works smoother, with less flex. The high carbon blades were made thinner and thinner to spread the shock of the edge flexing and reduce edge damage. They became so thin they added the shoulder to prevent horizontal cracking. It was a compromise. With carbon-chromium there is no need for compromise, just make a thicker blade, no vertical crack, no horizontal cracks just a stiff long lasting edge.

I think you may want to look up how razors dull because your speculations aren't quite how it works.
As far as flexing goes, that has very little to do with thickness at the bevel, and neither does edge damage.
I mean it's one thing to manufacture your razors in particular geometry because customers prefer them that way or because it is way easier and cheaper to make them that way, but rationalizing it with wrong science/engineering is no good.

Take a look at the razors marketed 'For Tough Beards' when straight shaving was far more common and there was huge competition. A lot of them, including from the top manufacturers, are full hollow and extra full hollow ground.

Lastly I'd mention that I happen to have a ~200 year old razor (yes the maker stopped producing them ~200 years ago) with a 1/32" bevel thickness. Yes, there is no flex whatsoever, the steel composition from back then is I assume pretty simple, but it's heat treated properly and is really easy to hone (I've done it just once), really nice to shave with, and retains an edge long time.

Originally Posted by bishpick1

this is why the worn out quarter hollows you mentioned dull so quickly and why you want to chunk them into the display case instead of using them.

Or maybe they shaved well & were honed a lot over 1 or 2 centuries of use.

Originally Posted by onimaru55

Or maybe they shaved well & were honed a lot over 1 or 2 centuries of use.

I'm sure it did. That's what make great razors great. Maybe this issue will be settled in another century or two. I at least got to state my side of the issue, agree or not, that's a good thing.