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  1. #11
    Senior Member timberrr59's Avatar
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    Thumbs down Not Wasting Time

    English, I am not trying to waste time nor confuse anyone. I am confused somewhat with the way my razors have reacted to different, possibly idiotic honing/stropping. What you might consider idiotic makes one of them a perfect shaver. I wish to focus on the best way to hone and strop. There are many ways to do this. There are several mindsets. Not everyone shaves the same. I am not new to the sharpening of metal. I also sharpen handsaws and use them well. There are many ways to do that also. Maybe the techniques are overlapping with me at this point. Again, My Point is to perfect skills WITHOUT WASTING TIME. The inputs and opinions of others mean a great deal to me. Next time you belittle another Member of this quality site, please use a Private Message. OK? Meanwhile go to past pages' #39 of Strops Forum (leading end on a pasted strop thread) and read some. Take them to task. You are done with me and I am done with you.
    Last edited by timberrr59; 11-20-2008 at 03:24 AM. Reason: letter ommission

  2. #12
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    Kevint,,

    I take back my "Idiot" comment . I wrote the reply quickly. Sorry for any offense caused. What I meant to say is that I find the concepts of honing with the toe leading to be idiotic.

    I am talking about normal honing.

    The orientation of the striations does matter a great deal both in the honing stage and the stropping stage. A razor edge cuts using a sawing action. That is why the orientation of the striations matter.

    It is the fundamental principal upon which the sharpening of a straight razor is based.

    Suggesting otherwise annoys me because it is just argumentative and not based on any logic. You can fly in the face of generations of barbers if you want but I think that is naive and unhelpful.

    Sure to hone out a problem using a toe leading stroke can help on occasion as can a circular stroke as can a back stroke. But this is not the normal way of honing. Normal honing is in the way I described and I explained the reasons why it is the normal way to hone.

  3. #13
    Senior Member kevint's Avatar
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    I guess we could talk about sawing then

    I will stick with the idea that plain strops are essentially non abrasive. And our standard barber's approach is more based on body mechanics than orienting scratches.

    The strop is resetting the saw teeth that have deformed out of line. bent you could say.

    I picture the teefs to be similar to double edge daggers rather than single edged. So they are not oriented toward a push or pull stroke. As well, like the Old Verhoven says: there is always a bur.

    Coticules on dry beards at dawn Heels vs. Toes

  4. #14
    Senior Member timberrr59's Avatar
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    Cool Teeth Reverse Setting

    I speak saw lingo. With saws "set" is the amount of spread of teeth to each side of the cutting edge of the blade. It makes the kerf (width of cut) wider so that the rest of the saw blade will not pinch during sawing. A razor edge, on the other hand, needs to be most narrow to slice whiskers. My point is to understand the best way to make sure those serrations (teeth) narrow up. Does the strop work better rubbing at a tangent across the teeth, or does it work better more in line with the teeth? To me there is an element of leverage at play here. At least less friction running with the serrations. An earlier thought of mine was that the teeth were plowing into the nap if stropped with the serration, thus causing more draw. Maybe I am feeling the across- the- striation friction. My barber told me that he was told in barber school that some of the strop leather clogs between the teeth to buffer the cutting of the edge against the skin. He wasn't sure of how it worked. I am not exactly sure of how stropping works. I hate being called a time waster and confuser of mankind over seemingly hair-splitting arguments, and I am not in disregard of centuries of technique. I just do not fully understand the best way to get all my razors to shave great every time. Comparison of results can't be that bad to tolerate. Saw talk seems to be less stressful. Maybe a thread in THE FINER THINGS IN LIFE forum, perhaps?...

  5. #15
    Senior Member kevint's Avatar
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    If we recall the old Modern Mechanix article on safety razor blades with its 2000 diameter photos we will remember there are no teeth at that level of magnification. That was 1931. The saw blade analogy was called a myth.

    Sorry I led you on. the point though, whatever form is there at the very edge; it is sharp enough to cut without directional bias. I think so.

  6. #16
    Senior Member timberrr59's Avatar
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    Kevin, I saw that copy of the 1931 story. It could be that we have been "mythguided"... I have been through all of our past threads about Stropping and have seen many things and have given Thanks for several. I started at the last page and worked back through 49 pages! I am doing the same with all 115 pages of Basic Honing and 13 pages of Advanced Honing Techniques. This is a wonderful learning site. We seem to enjoy each other's company and inputs. A new strop is on the way for me. Two nice workable razors arrived yesterday amid the fuss about optimum honin/stropping. The point is: I am anxious to begin experimentation with what I have learned from various members. A third razor should be here in the next few days to complete the tests. This is fun and no harm is done. Thanks, Robert
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    Last edited by timberrr59; 11-20-2008 at 01:39 PM. Reason: punctuation

  7. #17
    Junior Member illtemper's Avatar
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    well I'll throw in my 2cents. I learned to sharpen/shave with a straight in the late 70"s. My grandfather, a barber on and off for decades, taught me to ALWAYS use a circular pattern to sharpen and an alternating heel to toe/ toe to heel to strop. I've since found that on some blades it works better/ easier to use the same alternating pattern when honing. I know that alot of people here will disagree,but this is what has always worked for me, and my family (we all use straights,including most of the women). If circles cut too much metal,your grits too course.I use a norton 4k/8k then to a pasted crox strop then finish with a smooth strop, sometimes I'll give it a few laps on newspaper or fine cardboard, and thats it. I never have a problem passing a hht or cutting the arm hair in the middle of the shaft like a mini lawnmower. I have never used a microscope or anything else to check my edge,and frankly don't understand the obsessive nature of some of the people on here,but I do agree with furthering the "hobby", and any accurate info is good info. If your razor pulls at all,its not sharp enough! 2 passes (1 wtg-1 atg) should get 95+% of the growth, then touch up the tuff spots we all have and its done.
    stropping/honing toe to heel does not go against what all barbers have always done,and if you were concerned with that we should all be doing circles anyway as thats how most real barbers honed.

    just my expirience/opinion....jon

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  9. #18
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    I like experimentation like everyone and I am also happy to challenge the status quo and take on change.

    I've tried many ways of honing and stropping. I've even tried circles. Cardboard I have to admit is a new one for me but I can see that cardboard has a nap that should work as a strop.

    I have tried many hones, strops pastes and razors and I have read many books and articles and training manuels on how to sharpen a razor. I have participated in many razor forums over the years. I enjoy my hobby.

    But please tell me what is a "Real Barber" ?

  10. #19
    Senior Member timberrr59's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Heels, Toes, and Circles

    I bought my first straight razor (brand-new Dovo $90) in 1998. My (Real)* barber who opened his shop in 1946 and is still in business honed my Dovo. He used a grayish hone about the size of a playing card deck. He first lathered it and then almost recklessly honed in quick tight circles! He then stropped it so fast that I could not see heel nor toe leading. It was fast and furious. I shaved with it once and sold it. No straight razors until 2005 for me when I joined straightrazorplace. I stayed for about 6 months with a W&B 6/8 India Steel quarter hollow. It was worn out. I got careless and took a good cut on the jawline. I quit again and started back this year. All my acquired razors give good shaves; only one gives a great shave. I am reverse engineering to get the best bang for the buck out of honing and stropping in order to have all 9 razors be great shavers. I realize that my weakest skill is in stropping. Many reliable posts attest this common weakness. Here we are. I can hardly wait for that new strop and some time with my recent razors. Thank you for your input to this thread. It is becoming evident that this hobby or passion is not a total in-the-box thinking and application. This is indeed fun. Robert

    *Made a good living at his skill and art and did not think inside a small box bound by centuries of tradition, dogma, and blind obedience to protocol...cheers.
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  11. #20
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    Robert,

    Your barber clearly has some great skills.

    I watched a knife sharpener on U Tube the other day and was impressed with his level of skill.

    On the subject of stropping, I have tried the various ways you have spoken about and I could honestly detect no difference.

    There are three things with stropping that I think matter and have helped me improve my stropping technique.

    Firstly, the number of strokes needs to be more rather than less. I think that after honing at least 50 return strokes are required and 100 will do no damage. But you can hear when the razor is stropped.
    Secondly, it helps if the strokes are reasonably fast and continuous rather than slow and ponderous. When you are learning, it is best to take it slowly so as not to cut the strop, but to get a really good edge, a reasonable speed and action are important. Incidentally, the barbers I would watch as a child all stropped
    quickly and frequently.
    Thirdly, the strop should be held taught and the blade run lightly over the leather. Yes you need to exert a bit of pressure to ensure the blade is flat on the strop and that it takes up the slack in the hanging strop, but you shouldn't press the blade into the strop. You can see the nap shadow change as the razor passes back and forth and you will notice a ditinctive smooth sound as the edge reaches its clean and straight state. The tone is different on different blades but is always smooth and sweet, a mellow ringing sound.

    When I have honed the striations straight on a wide 3" hone and then stropped effectively with the grain, I can not say I have noticed any change to the edge.

    I hope this is a more positive contribution to your quest.

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