Thread: interesting thing dawned on me today....

This is a very good question and is so very difficult to quantify. All we have are experienced, anecdotal, qualitative data from users on this, and other, blogs. Of course this is valuable data for sure, but what our hobby really needs is an scanning electron micrograph "SEM" of edges followed by some sort of quantitative cutting resistance that simulates whiskers. There are such tools for knives, but the edge of a straight razor is far to fragile to use them.

With that said, here is my anecdotal response.

I think that the stropping on leather is the single most important refining step to any edge, and that if it is being done right there is benefit up to 100 strokes beyond which I don't find and difference. I typically use 60-80 laps. I have always found it fascinating that most DE razor manufacturers stop at ~900 grit for the final hone on the micro-edge. Of course the angle and pressure are perfect. Out of curiosity I have tried a lightly honed razor right off my 1000 grit followed by CrO balsa then 100 laps of leather. It was an excellent shave virtually indistinguishable from my Naniwa 12k finish. What this means to me is that once the edge has converged perfectly, even at a fairly low grit, the refining stages of CrO and/or leather seem to be contributing the most to the comfort of the shave. Of course this is just a qualitative opinion.

No. As much as I believe in the benefits of stropping, there is no way you can strop a good edge onto a blade if the edge was rubbish off the hone in only 60/60 (or even at all, depending on the edge). So I would say that, regardless of the name you want to put to a honing recipe, the smoothness or lack thereof of the edge can never be solely attributed to the post-honing stropping regime.

James.

You could always just try to shave directly off the stone, omitting the stropping. That would show you exactly what is gained from the stone, and what is from the stropping. I have shaved directly off most of my hones, it is quite interesting and rarely very uncomfortable.

Originally Posted by str8fencer

You could always just try to shave directly off the stone, omitting the stropping. That would show you exactly what is gained from the stone, and what is from the stropping. I have shaved directly off most of my hones, it is quite interesting and rarely very uncomfortable.

Yes, I have read of this and done this, once. So only on one razor. It was not a bad shave at all, not even overly harsh (my first few shaves are "harsh" after honing). My theory is that with stropping, you're re-aligning. With honing, it's more forceful than stropping because you're putting the edge's face, only one side, in contact with a hard surface, and of course it's edge-first not spine-first when done conventionally (my apologies to MC aka gammaray (I had the same suspicion!)). But in theory you could just lightly refresh an edge on your finisher with far fewer laps than for stropping, but of course you're removing just a little metal, revealing fresh metal so it's not the same. But the idea is that you would also be re-aligning the metal very efficiently (or removing the worst offending misaligned "teeth"). In my head, straight off the hones I'm dealing with an edge which could be fairly aligned, but the teeth are oh-so-subtly pushed in one direction from the last stroke off the hone.

Originally Posted by Jimbo

No. As much as I believe in the benefits of stropping, there is no way you can strop a good edge onto a blade if the edge was rubbish off the hone in only 60/60 (or even at all, depending on the edge). So I would say that, regardless of the name you want to put to a honing recipe, the smoothness or lack thereof of the edge can never be solely attributed to the post-honing stropping regime.

James.

You make a good point. I agree that stropping will not make a bad edge better or shave ready. However, your statement does support the fact that stropping does make a good edge even better. Stropping is doing something at the microscopic level to the edge at this point beyond what is acheived by the stone alone. Otherwise, we would all just shave directly off our stones, which I have also done with some success.

I think that was the point being made. That a nicely honed bevel and edge from just about any coticule or waterstone is definitely improved by the stropping process and that this may be the ultimate determinant of shave ready. Otherwise, why strop at all.

My statement had nothing to do with making a good edge better. That is a given. The OP asked whether these so-called unicot and diluticot recipes edge's comfort is more to do with the stropping than it is to do with the stone. I said no it isn't using what is generically referred to here as the "polished turd" principle as an example. If this is not the case, why hone at all?

James.

Jimbo,
I think you are quite mistaken. No matter what ANYBODY says, leather removes metal from a blade. You could even probably get an edge onto a blade without stones. Just strops and pastes (ofc there would have to be a bevel). I do think this is a most interesting issue though.

I am not sure to which response you are responding.

But I agree with you that any material can eventually remove metal given enough pressure, strokes and time. Leather is arguably the finest grit we finish with estimated at 60-90,000 grit from the molecular compounds impregnated into the leather naturally and through the tanning process.

Using leather alone to refine a poor bevel would probably take many hours of contiunous work, maybe even days, but I must concede that given enough time some metal can be removed albeit very inefficiently.

one thing i have heard a few times is that coticules benefit from more laps on the linen after honing than other hones.

Stropping on leather definitely removes metal albeit very very slowly. One only need look at my strops to see they are greyed with the many deposits of microscopic metal which has been imbedded. I really believe this slow deposit of metal in the strop is what makes the draw increase over time. Think about shaving and what it does to the edge and you must realize that skin will remove metal. It is a question of how fast or how large the particles are being removed. Hones remove it quickly and skin or leather very slowly but quite perceptibly. I have restored one razor with nothing more than emory/crox/leather. It was a slow process to be sure and not in anyway practical. Since obtaining a Norton 8k I can do the same work in minutes now.
My razors now get the 8k followed by the Crox on leather followed by leather. I can keep a good shaving edge with followups on the leather alone for weeks and then bring it back with a few laps on the Crox finishing with the leather.

The reality is what gives YOU the best shave!

my 2 cents and worth just what you paid
It really comes down to what you find creates a comfortable shaving edge. There are many ways to get to the same destination.