Thread: Stropping is King

jnich67

I keep my thumb centred on the neck face but the thumb sort of slightly sits on the faces upper corner on each stroke nearest the blade.(V hard to explain)
My index finger sits on the underside flipping/rolling from the finger tip to the first joint crease with each stroke. My other fingers but mainly my little finger, curl slightly around the scales to control the balance.
I believe as long as your thumb is pressing centred (biased to the blade side ) on the neck, you automatically apply the right spread of pressure to the blade.

Sounds like you are right by your description. I tried your method and it does work.

PuFF

Originally Posted by honedright

I've already proposed some guidlines to gauge that journey to perfection, such as being able to continue shaving with your razor for at least six months using only a strop to maintain your keen edge.
If you cannot do that, then it is (I think) a good indicator that you need to re-evaluate your stropping technique and maybe try different things all the time sticking to the basic fundamentals.

I've been wracking my brain trying to uderstand this from a physical point of view. I have to admit that at first I was very skeptical about Scott's claim. I have never heard anyone else claim sharpness for 6 months or more with only stropping. Has anyone else? However, I think it's physically doable, but we don't have the whole picture.

Whether it's an indication of any suprior ability in razor maintenance will have to remain an open question for now. I see no merit in using stropping only as compared to the traditional approach of occasional refreshing.

Let me start with Prof. Verhoeven's treatise on sharpening. He found very clearly that stropping on plain leather does not sharpen an edge after honing. My observation is that it does improve the razor, but probably only by smoothing the edge. I think we need to accept the fact that stropping on plain leather will not sharpen an edge.

This is consistent with my experience, and I believe that of others, where you can strop just so much before it fails to restore sharpness. I think we all agree that stropping resores sharpness by realigning the fin. When it fails to do so I pop on a fine hone for under 5 reps and I'm back in business. That's pretty much the way I saw my baeber do it. Some guys say they use a pasted strop. And if I recall correctly, it takes about 20 laps with .5 micron. Typically that happens after 10 shaves. At that point the fin is slightly dulled and removing just a little material restores sharpness.

I think we have all found that you must remove the material, whether you do it in tiny bites, like me, or let it ride and do a real honing job some time later.

After 10 shaves, Scott has done 400 reps on his strop. If it takes only 20 reps with .5, it wouldn't take a very high abrasive to remove the same material with 400 reps. If that happened, Scott's razor would be in the same condition as the guy who used the paste. However, plain leather won't provide the abrasion. Something is missing here- a minute abrasive on Scott's strop. Could it be that the urethane he put on and then roughed up provides the necessary trace abrasive?

I'll repeat, plain leather stropping will not provide the abrasion needed to remove that little bit of metal to refresh the fin, but a trace of abrasive would. If we think of .5 as equivalent to a 50K grit, the equivalent to a 500K to 1000K grit might be enough.

Originally Posted by 1adam12

Hey Scott I have a quick question for you. This is something that has been discussed before, and I was just curious what you thought. Do you strop after the shave or only before? I strop before 40 linen/40 leather, and after 15 linen/ 15 leather. I like to be sure the edge is dry and stropping insures that in my mind. Anyway I just wanted to know if you stropped after the shave too. Thanks.

There was a thread very recently where we concluded that stropping could be done after, if the edge has not deteriorated a lot during the shave. THat could happen even with a very tough beard if you did mid-shave stropping to limit the edge deterioration.

[quote=PuFFaH;74309]

Why then is it not recognised by some that stropping is but another arm to the process of sharpening.

For one thing, prof. Verhoeven's experiments show that plain leather does not increase sharpness after honing. THeoretically, everything has some abrasive qualities, so if you did a huge number of reps on leather I suppose you could wear down the metal.

A razor can't maintain a tru flat hone bevel if stroped repeatedly can it? Surely a more rounded profile will result eventually and as such a far stronger edge results.

If your honing flat and only doing the kind of reps we do with stropping, plain leather will not remove enough material to change the shape of the bevel. If you round over too much, you may damage the fin.

Please someone get a microscope out on a very well stropped razor. I for one would like to have this proved or dissproved. Knowledge is a great thing, lets get some.

I've looked with as high as 200x, and the bevel is not convex.

I don't think you can ignore heating or pressure. Pressure increases friction, which is abrasive. Heating comes about from frictional rubbing, so if the razor heats up it's a sign that you did generate some abrasion.

Sufficient abrasion is the missing piece that would explain it all.

Originally Posted by PuFFaH

jnich67

I keep my thumb centred on the neck face but the thumb sort of slightly sits on the faces upper corner on each stroke nearest the blade.(V hard to explain)
My index finger sits on the underside flipping/rolling from the finger tip to the first joint crease with each stroke. My other fingers but mainly my little finger, curl slightly around the scales to control the balance.
I believe as long as your thumb is pressing centred (biased to the blade side ) on the neck, you automatically apply the right spread of pressure to the blade.

Sounds like you are right by your description. I tried your method and it does work.

PuFF

PuFF,that acutally sounds a lot like how I do it also. The tang does roll a bit along the top joint of the index finger and I hold the scales loosely as well.

Jordan

Joe
I will get a microscope some how and take a look at one of my razors that has never seen a hone for 16 years. I'll post pictures if possible. Has me intreaged anyway. (sharpest razor I own)
I still believe that this forum has nurtured the honing side of SR shaving to the detriment of correct stropping technique. One cannot live without the other but both play at least an equal part in the final outcome.
Do you all think that this favour is granted to hones because the act of honing is many faceted but clear to understand. Or is it stropping has too many variables in its practice that can effect the outcome, that people just dont understand that this could be where they might be going wrong when they get razor burn. Emphisis is put on poor honing as the root of the problem, when infact poor stropping could be just as much to blame. An adequate honing job on a razor can still be made to shave excellently if properly stropped. On the other foot, an excellent hone job can be made useless by poor stropping technique. 50/50 don't you agree?
So my point is, lets discuss stropping as much as honing if possible so we get a more comprehensive knowledge.

"In search of knowledge"

PuFF

Originally Posted by Joe Lerch

Could it be that the urethane he put on and then roughed up provides the necessary trace abrasive?

I'll repeat, plain leather stropping will not provide the abrasion needed to remove that little bit of metal to refresh the fin, but a trace of abrasive would. If we think of .5 as equivalent to a 50K grit, the equivalent to a 500K to 1000K grit might be enough.

That urethane was applied to an old IRS strop which I rarely use. My everyday strop is a Dubl-Duck shell with a waxed linen. And by the way, I didn't "rough up" the urethane coated strop, I smoothed it to a gloss. But I already wrote that in an earlier post. Regardless, it does work quite nicely. The IRS 827 (untreated by me, just broken in is all) works very nicely as well. I just prefer the smooth Dubl-Duck.

I suppose it is possible that there was an abrassive added to the Dubl-Duck strop over 50 years ago when it was manufactured, but I haven't added anything to it. If anyone knows the answer, I'd certainly like to know.

One of these days I will get out an IRS 361, which I know for sure is untreated and see if I can't get the same results as I've been getting on the Dubl-Duck.

Scott

Another question, how long does a single application of strop paste (abrassive) remain effective? I've been using the Dubl-Duck for over 10 years and have never applied any abrassive to it.

Assuming it did at one time did have some paste on it, how long would that last? Also consider that I've cleaned this strop many times. Same goes for the waxed linen. Been scraped, scrubbed, and cleaned.

Anyone have any ideas??

Scott

Hasn't it been stated before by Tony Miller that some of the leathers/treatments have a silica content? I don't want to speak for him obviously, but that could explain a "trace" abrasive on an otherwise untreated strop.

Maybe this also explains why plain leather (no treatment like a latigo finish - Joe?) will not improve sharpness. Is this reasoning for why a proper strop is required, and not your trouser belt?