Thread: A method for pressing horn

Thanks for answering our questions. Im glad you got pictures of the work in progress. The scales you've made made look great and your still refining the process.
Just to clarify, I wasn't making any suggestions about chemicals. I was just curious about how it was done originally.
Seems like one of the biggest hurdles (for guys like me) would be the actual designing of the tooling, knowing who could make it, etc.
It would be amazing to see what some of you guys with design/engineering/machinist/forging experience could create if you were able to collaborate on a project together.
I always imagined them using an extremely hot press to make scales, so I'm not surprised you had to heat it up so much.
Didn't they originally use thinner more pliable cattle horn for scale making vs the thick blanks we buy now?

I don't remember reading about anyone boiling scales in neatsfoot oil instead of just soaking. Wish I could try that, especially if it makes the scales stronger.

Thanks for all the info!!

Originally Posted by JP5

Thanks for answering our questions. Im glad you got pictures of the work in progress. The scales you've made made look great and your still refining the process.
Just to clarify, I wasn't making any suggestions about chemicals. I was just curious about how it was done originally.
Seems like one of the biggest hurdles (for guys like me) would be the actual designing of the tooling, knowing who could make it, etc.
It would be amazing to see what some of you guys with design/engineering/machinist/forging experience could create if you were able to collaborate on a project together.
I always imagined them using an extremely hot press to make scales, so I'm not surprised you had to heat it up so much.
Didn't they originally use thinner more pliable cattle horn for scale making vs the thick blanks we buy now?

I don't remember reading about anyone boiling scales in neatsfoot oil instead of just soaking. Wish I could try that, especially if it makes the scales stronger.

Thanks for all the info!!

I am hoping that others will refine the process and think of things that I haven't. There is a vast area of experimentation out there to try. One advantage the old guys had was that they had tons of horn to work with, and more importantly, screw up with. Delaminating off thinner pieces is another art, and band sawing requires blades with very thin kerfs that run very true. As far as other skills out there; someone with lost wax casting experience and equipment could make a very highly detailed, contoured cast brass die which could have a follow die for pressing old style contoured designs. Each day I think of new possibilities, and where there is a will, there is a way. I made the fixture with a drill press and a hand tap. Haven't done that in years.

For boiling horn, I use a $10 hot plate, an old frying pan, some tweezers and some 100% Neatsfoot. When I try a piece treated that way before heating and pressing, I'll surely report back. Should be interesting. One of the differences in oil boiling and water boiling is that oil doesn't make the horn revert to it's curved memory. Anther feature is that like the hot pressing, it's done as soon as it cools whereas water requires slow drying while clamped.

Keep cogitatin'

The late Neil Miller probably forgot more about the old processes than most of us know, he and I had a few discussions on here about Horn and Scale making

In fact, it was from one of those where I got the idea of using the hot oil, IIRC they were actually using Whale oil back then BUT you might take a look through some of Neil's old posts and see if there are more ideas for you in there. I know I gleaned quite a few i have used in the workshop over the years


https://straightrazorpalace.com/memb...il-miller.html

Originally Posted by Oldnick

Attachment 287655
Having read everything I could on the internet and other sources on the old methods of pressing horn, I finally, after much experimentation, have gotten to where I can at least produce a reasonable facsimile of the older work. Making the horn pliable can be achieved by boiling, flaming, baking, and heat lamps, but each of those methods has serious drawbacks when trying to align a piece of hot horn to a cold die, and then press it. The solution is to heat the horn and the die together as a unit. More experimentation (read as failures) based on that concept, led me to making this fixture.

Attachment 287656
The top plate moves up and down freely, which allows for compression once the fixture is in the press. The wing nuts tighten the horn and die firmly together in the cold state. Keeping the horn and die aligned is very important, and high temperature tapes can be used to initially locate and fix the two until the top plate is affixed and tightened. Once tightened down, the unit can be handled without affecting the line-up, and that is a key feature. BTW this is heavy. If I had a better press, the weight could be lowered a bit.
I am still logging values for optimal temperatures and times, but my examples were made by heating the fixture to 450 degrees for about 45 minutes. The time is to make sure that the fixture and contents are all at temperature. I use the kitchen oven, and no, it doesn’t smell. It’s ready when a toothpick inserted into the middle comes out clean…..oh, wait a minute, that’s a cake, never mind.

I don’t have the perfect press, but I have an old arbor press fitted with a 12 ton jack. That it has a single point ram is not the best configuration, but I can get it to work by pressing different areas. The wing nuts on the fixture can be tightened once compression loosens them, so I can then move it around. A good press would be a heavy duty rectangle of steel with two jacks mounted side by side. 6 ton jacks would probably work. There is lots of experimentation and designing left for the reader to explore. I have had areas end up not being deep enough, and you can realign, reheat and repress.
Attachment 287657

Once the horn has been pressed, the fixture is left under pressure until cool. You can speed that up with fans and laying aluminum bars on the fixture to act as heat sinks.

There is much to say about the dies, and the artwork for the dies, but to keep this from being overly long I’ll answer questions about that as they are asked. In short, I’m using photo etched magnesium alloy dies obtained from Owosso Engraving Company. I can’t say enough good things about them. The dies generally cost around $50 for the 2-up size. They can even make hand engraved dies that could emulate the finely detailed work of the past, but they would be very expensive. The art used for making the dies needs to be black and white vector based artwork. I have been asking for a 3/32” depth, but may move back to 1/16”. Whether something is right reading or wrong reading is also very important. I made a mistake on the greyhound die. I had just flipped it around to make the second image. I should have mirrored it. The greyhound is upside down on the read side of the razor @@##@#. The correct die is in the mail. Who knew a dog could be right or wrong reading?

Blank dies can also be made that slightly impress the back of the horn over the design area on the other side of the horn. These can be made from thin sheet metal, or you could order an etched one. Even a layer of thin tape will make an impression. A random pattern of bits and pieces could be pressed into and all over a whole piece of horn, and not require a die. There is very much to play with. Just remember that what is etched into the die will be raised on the horn. Get a good pair of oven mitts.Attachment 287658

what an awesome setup looks fantastic, thanks for sharing.

For those interested in the historical press. It was essentially a book press with a single large threaded rod into a flat plate. I've never measured the max pressure on one, but 50 psi can be reached easily (equivalent to about 3.5 tons), and I would guess that 3 or 4 times that pressure could be reached.

The old presses looked like the attached image:

Originally Posted by Oldnick

Attachment 287655
Having read everything I could on the internet and other sources on the old methods of pressing horn, I finally, after much experimentation, have gotten to where I can at least produce a reasonable facsimile of the older work. Making the horn pliable can be achieved by boiling, flaming, baking, and heat lamps, but each of those methods has serious drawbacks when trying to align a piece of hot horn to a cold die, and then press it. The solution is to heat the horn and the die together as a unit. More experimentation (read as failures) based on that concept, led me to making this fixture.

Attachment 287656
The top plate moves up and down freely, which allows for compression once the fixture is in the press. The wing nuts tighten the horn and die firmly together in the cold state. Keeping the horn and die aligned is very important, and high temperature tapes can be used to initially locate and fix the two until the top plate is affixed and tightened. Once tightened down, the unit can be handled without affecting the line-up, and that is a key feature. BTW this is heavy. If I had a better press, the weight could be lowered a bit.
I am still logging values for optimal temperatures and times, but my examples were made by heating the fixture to 450 degrees for about 45 minutes. The time is to make sure that the fixture and contents are all at temperature. I use the kitchen oven, and no, it doesn’t smell. It’s ready when a toothpick inserted into the middle comes out clean…..oh, wait a minute, that’s a cake, never mind.

I don’t have the perfect press, but I have an old arbor press fitted with a 12 ton jack. That it has a single point ram is not the best configuration, but I can get it to work by pressing different areas. The wing nuts on the fixture can be tightened once compression loosens them, so I can then move it around. A good press would be a heavy duty rectangle of steel with two jacks mounted side by side. 6 ton jacks would probably work. There is lots of experimentation and designing left for the reader to explore. I have had areas end up not being deep enough, and you can realign, reheat and repress.
Attachment 287657

Once the horn has been pressed, the fixture is left under pressure until cool. You can speed that up with fans and laying aluminum bars on the fixture to act as heat sinks.

There is much to say about the dies, and the artwork for the dies, but to keep this from being overly long I’ll answer questions about that as they are asked. In short, I’m using photo etched magnesium alloy dies obtained from Owosso Engraving Company. I can’t say enough good things about them. The dies generally cost around $50 for the 2-up size. They can even make hand engraved dies that could emulate the finely detailed work of the past, but they would be very expensive. The art used for making the dies needs to be black and white vector based artwork. I have been asking for a 3/32” depth, but may move back to 1/16”. Whether something is right reading or wrong reading is also very important. I made a mistake on the greyhound die. I had just flipped it around to make the second image. I should have mirrored it. The greyhound is upside down on the read side of the razor @@##@#. The correct die is in the mail. Who knew a dog could be right or wrong reading?

Blank dies can also be made that slightly impress the back of the horn over the design area on the other side of the horn. These can be made from thin sheet metal, or you could order an etched one. Even a layer of thin tape will make an impression. A random pattern of bits and pieces could be pressed into and all over a whole piece of horn, and not require a die. There is very much to play with. Just remember that what is etched into the die will be raised on the horn. Get a good pair of oven mitts.Attachment 287658

YESSSS! I am so glad you had a chance to post this, and I am so glad someone is doing this!

I had always planned on either CNC machining steel dies or finding someone to do iron cast molds. The Owosso magnesium dies is a fascinating option I never would have considered, and now you have me wondering about how I could get dies made that way and then use standard engraving techniques for more detail. Seems like it’d mostly be a mental adjustment of how to do the design and where to leave material.

Have you thought about ways of making the mold do the cutout? The traditional ones had an interlocking lip that pressed the horn right out of the blank, like a cookie cutter.

I’m also thinking that if I try this, I’m going to make a getup so I can boil the entire press in neatsfoot oil. Which, I think, means something I can put on the burner of my grill so I can do it outside.

Originally Posted by Voidmonster

YESSSS! I am so glad you had a chance to post this, and I am so glad someone is doing this!

I had always planned on either CNC machining steel dies or finding someone to do iron cast molds. The Owosso magnesium dies is a fascinating option I never would have considered, and now you have me wondering about how I could get dies made that way and then use standard engraving techniques for more detail. Seems like it’d mostly be a mental adjustment of how to do the design and where to leave material.

Have you thought about ways of making the mold do the cutout? The traditional ones had an interlocking lip that pressed the horn right out of the blank, like a cookie cutter.

I’m also thinking that if I try this, I’m going to make a getup so I can boil the entire press in neatsfoot oil. Which, I think, means something I can put on the burner of my grill so I can do it outside.

Zak, you'll notice I titled the thread"A method...", it's certainly not, "THE method". Every day I find a new problem, or learn something that confounds me. I had thought CNC work, and Owosso does that if you can provide the proper files. I lost all my CAD programs when I retired and I'm not sure of how small of a tool they can use. I have also thought about how to have an etched die made that then would allow for engraved enhancement, but I ain't no engraver. The die for that would best be one of their copper dies.

A cast mold would be very good, and I can do that out of brass, but that is way down the road. I have been having enough problems doing what I am currently doing. Yes, for engraved dies, you have to think and work in reverse, and then there is the problem of just how much you can deflect the horn into the die. Geezer has knowledge of cutting dies, but there would be a lot of trial and error in making a precision follow-die that would cleave the horn at the edges. Horn thickness would be a big variable. I have made dies that fall away from the design, but without a follow die, the deflection at that edge makes the horn want to delaminate at the edges of the stock.

I made some 1/32" thick backup plates for a pressing last night. The results were good, and interesting. I'll post some photos later today. The confounding thing was that I had taped the follow plates in position. The tape left an impression on the horn THROUGH the metal plates, and the plates have no impression of the tape???!!! I'm having a little trouble getting my head around that. But then there's this impression:
That's a dog hair!
There is MUCH to explore even using this jackleg method. I'm not too sure I'll be boiling the press though.. Anyway, I'm glad you are enjoying my explorations....jump in!

Originally Posted by Oldnick

Zak, you'll notice I titled the thread"A method...", it's certainly not, "THE method". Every day I find a new problem, or learn something that confounds me. I had thought CNC work, and Owosso does that if you can provide the proper files. I lost all my CAD programs when I retired and I'm not sure of how small of a tool they can use. I have also thought about how to have an etched die made that then would allow for engraved enhancement, but I ain't no engraver. The die for that would best be one of their copper dies.

A cast mold would be very good, and I can do that out of brass, but that is way down the road. I have been having enough problems doing what I am currently doing. Yes, for engraved dies, you have to think and work in reverse, and then there is the problem of just how much you can deflect the horn into the die. Geezer has knowledge of cutting dies, but there would be a lot of trial and error in making a precision follow-die that would cleave the horn at the edges. Horn thickness would be a big variable. I have made dies that fall away from the design, but without a follow die, the deflection at that edge makes the horn want to delaminate at the edges of the stock.

One of my major problems in life is suffering from the delusion that I can pick up any skill I set my mind to, so I imagine I could learn to do die-engraving. This is probably quite far from true, but I'm willing to try.

My other problem is that I will cheerfully spend weeks making a faster method to do a thing that takes hours, so the CNC machined die is awfully appealing (and of course I'm sure I could figure out how to do that without having ever tried to do that).

You begin to see how I get in trouble.

I've got to think that one of the keys to getting the plates to cut as well as form is having the whole jig slathered in some kind of lube. I recall Neil saying they used tallow. There was that bit about the liquidized keratin dripping out of the molds.

But I'm also excited by the idea of boiling transparent horn in neatsfoot oil to improve its clarity -- that way lies some very good faux tortoise. I have everything I need for that experiment except blanks with good clarity. They're all streaky.

Originally Posted by Oldnick

I made some 1/32" thick backup plates for a pressing last night. The results were good, and interesting. I'll post some photos later today. The confounding thing was that I had taped the follow plates in position. The tape left an impression on the horn THROUGH the metal plates, and the plates have no impression of the tape???!!! I'm having a little trouble getting my head around that. But then there's this impression:
That's a dog hair!
There is MUCH to explore even using this jackleg method. I'm not too sure I'll be boiling the press though.. Anyway, I'm glad you are enjoying my explorations....jump in!

Whoa! That is a neat trick with the tape!

Xnay on the "boiling" horn. I heated a slab yesterday, and took it to a little higher heat and longer period. When the micro bubbling stopped, I took it out to find that it had shrunk badly. Flat surface on top had a sunken lagoon in the middle, other flat had developed waviness, the edges were concave, and the whole piece wanted to revert to its curved memory. Not good. Seems that only slight treatment at lower temperatures and times has any value whatsoever.

Thank you for posting this! It will inspire others to explore this lost art.
Keep us updated please.