A method for pressing horn

Attachment 287655
Having read everything I could on the internet and other sources on the old methods of pressing horn, I finally, after much experimentation, have gotten to where I can at least produce a reasonable facsimile of the older work. Making the horn pliable can be achieved by boiling, flaming, baking, and heat lamps, but each of those methods has serious drawbacks when trying to align a piece of hot horn to a cold die, and then press it. The solution is to heat the horn and the die together as a unit. More experimentation (read as failures) based on that concept, led me to making this fixture.

Attachment 287656
The top plate moves up and down freely, which allows for compression once the fixture is in the press. The wing nuts tighten the horn and die firmly together in the cold state. Keeping the horn and die aligned is very important, and high temperature tapes can be used to initially locate and fix the two until the top plate is affixed and tightened. Once tightened down, the unit can be handled without affecting the line-up, and that is a key feature. BTW this is heavy. If I had a better press, the weight could be lowered a bit.
I am still logging values for optimal temperatures and times, but my examples were made by heating the fixture to 450 degrees for about 45 minutes. The time is to make sure that the fixture and contents are all at temperature. I use the kitchen oven, and no, it doesn’t smell. It’s ready when a toothpick inserted into the middle comes out clean…..oh, wait a minute, that’s a cake, never mind.

I don’t have the perfect press, but I have an old arbor press fitted with a 12 ton jack. That it has a single point ram is not the best configuration, but I can get it to work by pressing different areas. The wing nuts on the fixture can be tightened once compression loosens them, so I can then move it around. A good press would be a heavy duty rectangle of steel with two jacks mounted side by side. 6 ton jacks would probably work. There is lots of experimentation and designing left for the reader to explore. I have had areas end up not being deep enough, and you can realign, reheat and repress.
Attachment 287657

Once the horn has been pressed, the fixture is left under pressure until cool. You can speed that up with fans and laying aluminum bars on the fixture to act as heat sinks.

There is much to say about the dies, and the artwork for the dies, but to keep this from being overly long I’ll answer questions about that as they are asked. In short, I’m using photo etched magnesium alloy dies obtained from Owosso Engraving Company. I can’t say enough good things about them. The dies generally cost around $50 for the 2-up size. They can even make hand engraved dies that could emulate the finely detailed work of the past, but they would be very expensive. The art used for making the dies needs to be black and white vector based artwork. I have been asking for a 3/32” depth, but may move back to 1/16”. Whether something is right reading or wrong reading is also very important. I made a mistake on the greyhound die. I had just flipped it around to make the second image. I should have mirrored it. The greyhound is upside down on the read side of the razor @@##@#. The correct die is in the mail. Who knew a dog could be right or wrong reading?

Blank dies can also be made that slightly impress the back of the horn over the design area on the other side of the horn. These can be made from thin sheet metal, or you could order an etched one. Even a layer of thin tape will make an impression. A random pattern of bits and pieces could be pressed into and all over a whole piece of horn, and not require a die. There is very much to play with. Just remember that what is etched into the die will be raised on the horn. Get a good pair of oven mitts.Attachment 287658

you Have put a lot into this. I am impressed with the work and the results. Thanks for sharing.

I don't Press Horn per se

I only use a press, to Straighten it and relieve the tendency to twist

I have found that 375° and Hot Oil (Think French Fry machine) works best for me and it keeps the horn from drying out in the oven



That might give you some ideas :)


Really love what ou have done to revive an old art form

That's great! thank you for sharing (and for your hard work). I'm wondering though what would be a practical way to do "one offs"? I'm thinking also that doing one scale at a time would allow less pressure if one doesn't have a hydrollic press.

What sort of press was used in the old days? Would C-clamps do the job?

Outstanding! Thank you for posting!

Thank you so much for posting this!!!!!:bow
How difficult was it designing the dye and did you already have a background using similar programs?
Using anything to condition the horn before/during/after pressing?
Do you plan on trying to press scales with rounded faces?

I was thinking MAYBE you had used a different medium that could be molded on top of the horn, since pressing horn requires dies, heat, and a lot of pressure. But you did it!!!!
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't they also use caustic chemicals in the pressing process back then?

Great stuff.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tintin

That's great! thank you for sharing (and for your hard work). I'm wondering though what would be a practical way to do "one offs"? I'm thinking also that doing one scale at a time would allow less pressure if one doesn't have a hydrollic press.

What sort of press was used in the old days? Would C-clamps do the job?

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Yes, I have a strong graphic arts background. You're on your own, and please experiment and report back. My first experiments were with boiled horn and a vise. If you have a big vice, it will work, but the fixture is the key as far as alignment and ease of use is concerned. A gang cluster of LARGE clamps should give results, but the pressure is great, so you will really need to crank down with extensions on the handles. Some of the earliest pressed horn was probably executed using screw based clamping. You can find a really inexpensive bearing press on Craigslist or at a pawnshop. Mine was remaindered at an auction. One offs is how I started.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JP5

Thank you so much for posting this!!!!!:bow
How difficult was it designing the dye and did you already have a background using similar programs?
Using anything to condition the horn before/during/after pressing?
Do you plan on trying to press scales with rounded faces?

I was thinking MAYBE you had used a different medium that could be molded on top of the horn, since pressing horn requires dies, heat, and a lot of pressure. But you did it!!!!
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't they also use caustic chemicals in the pressing process back then?

---

I have a strong graphic arts background. I used an inexpensive graphic convert to vectors program. Designing requires at leat a passing knowledge of graphics and the company I mention has very informative faqs and tips concerning artwork and diies. Yes, the whole secret has been to keep the dies as hot as the horn. As far as "doing it", can you say obsession? How exactly did they do this in the past? I really haven't found a reference that is more than cursory descriptions. Caustic chemicals affect the horn in a variety of ways, but none of them are particularly useful in pressing. Caustics tend to bleach the horn before making it pliable and others eat it. I am sure that there are probably useful pretreatments, but I haven't discovered any that don't cause other problems. After treatments are Neatsfoot soaking, and hot Neatsfoot does even more miracles.

Oh, yeah. Rounded faces is an entirely new box of worms, but given time and funds will probably be explored, but don't hold your breath.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

I don't Press Horn per se

I only use a press, to Straighten it and relieve the tendency to twist

I have found that 375° and Hot Oil (Think French Fry machine) works best for me and it keeps the horn from drying out in the oven



That might give you some ideas :)


Really love what ou have done to revive an old art form

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I have boiled the horn in Neatsfoot, and was amazed to watch micro bubbles escape the horn as the remaining moisture was replaced with oil. It is also interesting that the horn is immediately not oily as it would be in a cold soak, and hard and super translucent. I have yet to attempt pressing a boiled in oil piece, but it's on the list of things to experiment with. I'll report my findings when I do. Reviving the "lost" art was my obsessive purpose. I am extremely happy to have gotten it this far, and there are still doors to open.

Thanks for answering our questions. Im glad you got pictures of the work in progress. The scales you've made made look great and your still refining the process.
Just to clarify, I wasn't making any suggestions about chemicals. I was just curious about how it was done originally.
Seems like one of the biggest hurdles (for guys like me) would be the actual designing of the tooling, knowing who could make it, etc.
It would be amazing to see what some of you guys with design/engineering/machinist/forging experience could create if you were able to collaborate on a project together. :lurk::idea::argue:
I always imagined them using an extremely hot press to make scales, so I'm not surprised you had to heat it up so much.
Didn't they originally use thinner more pliable cattle horn for scale making vs the thick blanks we buy now?

I don't remember reading about anyone boiling scales in neatsfoot oil instead of just soaking. Wish I could try that, especially if it makes the scales stronger.

Thanks for all the info!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JP5

Thanks for answering our questions. Im glad you got pictures of the work in progress. The scales you've made made look great and your still refining the process.
Just to clarify, I wasn't making any suggestions about chemicals. I was just curious about how it was done originally.
Seems like one of the biggest hurdles (for guys like me) would be the actual designing of the tooling, knowing who could make it, etc.
It would be amazing to see what some of you guys with design/engineering/machinist/forging experience could create if you were able to collaborate on a project together. :lurk::idea::argue:
I always imagined them using an extremely hot press to make scales, so I'm not surprised you had to heat it up so much.
Didn't they originally use thinner more pliable cattle horn for scale making vs the thick blanks we buy now?

I don't remember reading about anyone boiling scales in neatsfoot oil instead of just soaking. Wish I could try that, especially if it makes the scales stronger.

Thanks for all the info!!

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I am hoping that others will refine the process and think of things that I haven't. There is a vast area of experimentation out there to try. One advantage the old guys had was that they had tons of horn to work with, and more importantly, screw up with. Delaminating off thinner pieces is another art, and band sawing requires blades with very thin kerfs that run very true. As far as other skills out there; someone with lost wax casting experience and equipment could make a very highly detailed, contoured cast brass die which could have a follow die for pressing old style contoured designs. Each day I think of new possibilities, and where there is a will, there is a way. I made the fixture with a drill press and a hand tap. Haven't done that in years.

For boiling horn, I use a $10 hot plate, an old frying pan, some tweezers and some 100% Neatsfoot. When I try a piece treated that way before heating and pressing, I'll surely report back. Should be interesting. One of the differences in oil boiling and water boiling is that oil doesn't make the horn revert to it's curved memory. Anther feature is that like the hot pressing, it's done as soon as it cools whereas water requires slow drying while clamped.

Keep cogitatin'

The late Neil Miller probably forgot more about the old processes than most of us know, he and I had a few discussions on here about Horn and Scale making

In fact, it was from one of those where I got the idea of using the hot oil, IIRC they were actually using Whale oil back then BUT you might take a look through some of Neil's old posts and see if there are more ideas for you in there. I know I gleaned quite a few i have used in the workshop over the years :)


https://straightrazorpalace.com/memb...il-miller.html

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Oldnick

Attachment 287655
Having read everything I could on the internet and other sources on the old methods of pressing horn, I finally, after much experimentation, have gotten to where I can at least produce a reasonable facsimile of the older work. Making the horn pliable can be achieved by boiling, flaming, baking, and heat lamps, but each of those methods has serious drawbacks when trying to align a piece of hot horn to a cold die, and then press it. The solution is to heat the horn and the die together as a unit. More experimentation (read as failures) based on that concept, led me to making this fixture.

Attachment 287656
The top plate moves up and down freely, which allows for compression once the fixture is in the press. The wing nuts tighten the horn and die firmly together in the cold state. Keeping the horn and die aligned is very important, and high temperature tapes can be used to initially locate and fix the two until the top plate is affixed and tightened. Once tightened down, the unit can be handled without affecting the line-up, and that is a key feature. BTW this is heavy. If I had a better press, the weight could be lowered a bit.
I am still logging values for optimal temperatures and times, but my examples were made by heating the fixture to 450 degrees for about 45 minutes. The time is to make sure that the fixture and contents are all at temperature. I use the kitchen oven, and no, it doesn’t smell. It’s ready when a toothpick inserted into the middle comes out clean…..oh, wait a minute, that’s a cake, never mind.

I don’t have the perfect press, but I have an old arbor press fitted with a 12 ton jack. That it has a single point ram is not the best configuration, but I can get it to work by pressing different areas. The wing nuts on the fixture can be tightened once compression loosens them, so I can then move it around. A good press would be a heavy duty rectangle of steel with two jacks mounted side by side. 6 ton jacks would probably work. There is lots of experimentation and designing left for the reader to explore. I have had areas end up not being deep enough, and you can realign, reheat and repress.
Attachment 287657

Once the horn has been pressed, the fixture is left under pressure until cool. You can speed that up with fans and laying aluminum bars on the fixture to act as heat sinks.

There is much to say about the dies, and the artwork for the dies, but to keep this from being overly long I’ll answer questions about that as they are asked. In short, I’m using photo etched magnesium alloy dies obtained from Owosso Engraving Company. I can’t say enough good things about them. The dies generally cost around $50 for the 2-up size. They can even make hand engraved dies that could emulate the finely detailed work of the past, but they would be very expensive. The art used for making the dies needs to be black and white vector based artwork. I have been asking for a 3/32” depth, but may move back to 1/16”. Whether something is right reading or wrong reading is also very important. I made a mistake on the greyhound die. I had just flipped it around to make the second image. I should have mirrored it. The greyhound is upside down on the read side of the razor @@##@#. The correct die is in the mail. Who knew a dog could be right or wrong reading?

Blank dies can also be made that slightly impress the back of the horn over the design area on the other side of the horn. These can be made from thin sheet metal, or you could order an etched one. Even a layer of thin tape will make an impression. A random pattern of bits and pieces could be pressed into and all over a whole piece of horn, and not require a die. There is very much to play with. Just remember that what is etched into the die will be raised on the horn. Get a good pair of oven mitts.Attachment 287658

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what an awesome setup looks fantastic, thanks for sharing.

For those interested in the historical press. It was essentially a book press with a single large threaded rod into a flat plate. I've never measured the max pressure on one, but 50 psi can be reached easily (equivalent to about 3.5 tons), and I would guess that 3 or 4 times that pressure could be reached.

The old presses looked like the attached image:
Attachment 287795

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Oldnick

Attachment 287655
Having read everything I could on the internet and other sources on the old methods of pressing horn, I finally, after much experimentation, have gotten to where I can at least produce a reasonable facsimile of the older work. Making the horn pliable can be achieved by boiling, flaming, baking, and heat lamps, but each of those methods has serious drawbacks when trying to align a piece of hot horn to a cold die, and then press it. The solution is to heat the horn and the die together as a unit. More experimentation (read as failures) based on that concept, led me to making this fixture.

Attachment 287656
The top plate moves up and down freely, which allows for compression once the fixture is in the press. The wing nuts tighten the horn and die firmly together in the cold state. Keeping the horn and die aligned is very important, and high temperature tapes can be used to initially locate and fix the two until the top plate is affixed and tightened. Once tightened down, the unit can be handled without affecting the line-up, and that is a key feature. BTW this is heavy. If I had a better press, the weight could be lowered a bit.
I am still logging values for optimal temperatures and times, but my examples were made by heating the fixture to 450 degrees for about 45 minutes. The time is to make sure that the fixture and contents are all at temperature. I use the kitchen oven, and no, it doesn’t smell. It’s ready when a toothpick inserted into the middle comes out clean…..oh, wait a minute, that’s a cake, never mind.

I don’t have the perfect press, but I have an old arbor press fitted with a 12 ton jack. That it has a single point ram is not the best configuration, but I can get it to work by pressing different areas. The wing nuts on the fixture can be tightened once compression loosens them, so I can then move it around. A good press would be a heavy duty rectangle of steel with two jacks mounted side by side. 6 ton jacks would probably work. There is lots of experimentation and designing left for the reader to explore. I have had areas end up not being deep enough, and you can realign, reheat and repress.
Attachment 287657

Once the horn has been pressed, the fixture is left under pressure until cool. You can speed that up with fans and laying aluminum bars on the fixture to act as heat sinks.

There is much to say about the dies, and the artwork for the dies, but to keep this from being overly long I’ll answer questions about that as they are asked. In short, I’m using photo etched magnesium alloy dies obtained from Owosso Engraving Company. I can’t say enough good things about them. The dies generally cost around $50 for the 2-up size. They can even make hand engraved dies that could emulate the finely detailed work of the past, but they would be very expensive. The art used for making the dies needs to be black and white vector based artwork. I have been asking for a 3/32” depth, but may move back to 1/16”. Whether something is right reading or wrong reading is also very important. I made a mistake on the greyhound die. I had just flipped it around to make the second image. I should have mirrored it. The greyhound is upside down on the read side of the razor @@##@#. The correct die is in the mail. Who knew a dog could be right or wrong reading?

Blank dies can also be made that slightly impress the back of the horn over the design area on the other side of the horn. These can be made from thin sheet metal, or you could order an etched one. Even a layer of thin tape will make an impression. A random pattern of bits and pieces could be pressed into and all over a whole piece of horn, and not require a die. There is very much to play with. Just remember that what is etched into the die will be raised on the horn. Get a good pair of oven mitts.Attachment 287658

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YESSSS! I am so glad you had a chance to post this, and I am so glad someone is doing this!

I had always planned on either CNC machining steel dies or finding someone to do iron cast molds. The Owosso magnesium dies is a fascinating option I never would have considered, and now you have me wondering about how I could get dies made that way and then use standard engraving techniques for more detail. Seems like it’d mostly be a mental adjustment of how to do the design and where to leave material.

Have you thought about ways of making the mold do the cutout? The traditional ones had an interlocking lip that pressed the horn right out of the blank, like a cookie cutter.

I’m also thinking that if I try this, I’m going to make a getup so I can boil the entire press in neatsfoot oil. Which, I think, means something I can put on the burner of my grill so I can do it outside.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Voidmonster

YESSSS! I am so glad you had a chance to post this, and I am so glad someone is doing this!

I had always planned on either CNC machining steel dies or finding someone to do iron cast molds. The Owosso magnesium dies is a fascinating option I never would have considered, and now you have me wondering about how I could get dies made that way and then use standard engraving techniques for more detail. Seems like it’d mostly be a mental adjustment of how to do the design and where to leave material.

Have you thought about ways of making the mold do the cutout? The traditional ones had an interlocking lip that pressed the horn right out of the blank, like a cookie cutter.

I’m also thinking that if I try this, I’m going to make a getup so I can boil the entire press in neatsfoot oil. Which, I think, means something I can put on the burner of my grill so I can do it outside.

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Zak, you'll notice I titled the thread"A method...", it's certainly not, "THE method". Every day I find a new problem, or learn something that confounds me. I had thought CNC work, and Owosso does that if you can provide the proper files. I lost all my CAD programs when I retired and I'm not sure of how small of a tool they can use. I have also thought about how to have an etched die made that then would allow for engraved enhancement, but I ain't no engraver. The die for that would best be one of their copper dies.

A cast mold would be very good, and I can do that out of brass, but that is way down the road. I have been having enough problems doing what I am currently doing. Yes, for engraved dies, you have to think and work in reverse, and then there is the problem of just how much you can deflect the horn into the die. Geezer has knowledge of cutting dies, but there would be a lot of trial and error in making a precision follow-die that would cleave the horn at the edges. Horn thickness would be a big variable. I have made dies that fall away from the design, but without a follow die, the deflection at that edge makes the horn want to delaminate at the edges of the stock.

I made some 1/32" thick backup plates for a pressing last night. The results were good, and interesting. I'll post some photos later today. The confounding thing was that I had taped the follow plates in position. The tape left an impression on the horn THROUGH the metal plates, and the plates have no impression of the tape???!!! I'm having a little trouble getting my head around that. But then there's this impression:Attachment 287841
That's a dog hair!
There is MUCH to explore even using this jackleg method. I'm not too sure I'll be boiling the press though.:D. Anyway, I'm glad you are enjoying my explorations....jump in!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Oldnick

Zak, you'll notice I titled the thread"A method...", it's certainly not, "THE method". Every day I find a new problem, or learn something that confounds me. I had thought CNC work, and Owosso does that if you can provide the proper files. I lost all my CAD programs when I retired and I'm not sure of how small of a tool they can use. I have also thought about how to have an etched die made that then would allow for engraved enhancement, but I ain't no engraver. The die for that would best be one of their copper dies.

A cast mold would be very good, and I can do that out of brass, but that is way down the road. I have been having enough problems doing what I am currently doing. Yes, for engraved dies, you have to think and work in reverse, and then there is the problem of just how much you can deflect the horn into the die. Geezer has knowledge of cutting dies, but there would be a lot of trial and error in making a precision follow-die that would cleave the horn at the edges. Horn thickness would be a big variable. I have made dies that fall away from the design, but without a follow die, the deflection at that edge makes the horn want to delaminate at the edges of the stock.

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One of my major problems in life is suffering from the delusion that I can pick up any skill I set my mind to, so I imagine I could learn to do die-engraving. This is probably quite far from true, but I'm willing to try.

My other problem is that I will cheerfully spend weeks making a faster method to do a thing that takes hours, so the CNC machined die is awfully appealing (and of course I'm sure I could figure out how to do that without having ever tried to do that).

You begin to see how I get in trouble.

I've got to think that one of the keys to getting the plates to cut as well as form is having the whole jig slathered in some kind of lube. I recall Neil saying they used tallow. There was that bit about the liquidized keratin dripping out of the molds.

But I'm also excited by the idea of boiling transparent horn in neatsfoot oil to improve its clarity -- that way lies some very good faux tortoise. I have everything I need for that experiment except blanks with good clarity. They're all streaky.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Oldnick

I made some 1/32" thick backup plates for a pressing last night. The results were good, and interesting. I'll post some photos later today. The confounding thing was that I had taped the follow plates in position. The tape left an impression on the horn THROUGH the metal plates, and the plates have no impression of the tape???!!! I'm having a little trouble getting my head around that. But then there's this impression:Attachment 287841
That's a dog hair!
There is MUCH to explore even using this jackleg method. I'm not too sure I'll be boiling the press though.:D. Anyway, I'm glad you are enjoying my explorations....jump in!

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Whoa! That is a neat trick with the tape!

Xnay on the "boiling" horn. I heated a slab yesterday, and took it to a little higher heat and longer period. When the micro bubbling stopped, I took it out to find that it had shrunk badly. Flat surface on top had a sunken lagoon in the middle, other flat had developed waviness, the edges were concave, and the whole piece wanted to revert to its curved memory. Not good. Seems that only slight treatment at lower temperatures and times has any value whatsoever.

Thank you for posting this! :) It will inspire others to explore this lost art.
Keep us updated please. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by randydance062449

Thank you for posting this! :) It will inspire others to explore this lost art.
Keep us updated please. :)

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Thanks, I certainly hope so. Compared to the craftsmen that reside here, I'm just a duffer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Oldnick

Xnay on the "boiling" horn. I heated a slab yesterday, and took it to a little higher heat and longer period. When the micro bubbling stopped, I took it out to find that it had shrunk badly. Flat surface on top had a sunken lagoon in the middle, other flat had developed waviness, the edges were concave, and the whole piece wanted to revert to its curved memory. Not good. Seems that only slight treatment at lower temperatures and times has any value whatsoever.

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What did you boil it in? Water or neatsfoot?

Oops, left out the word oil. 100 percent neatsfoot.

Hmm. I wonder if that's related to temperature.

Also, I assume you found this? I had it bookmarked for when I got around to doing this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Voidmonster

Hmm. I wonder if that's related to temperature.

Also, I assume you found this? I had it bookmarked for when I got around to doing this.

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I had read that, but I'm still not sure I understand the tallow and flowing keratin bit. If we could get the keratin to flow, that would be super. So far for me, it tries to defy pliability, much less fluidity.

Here is a link to some presses with internal heating elements:

heated+mold+vulcanizing

https:Arbe-Machine-Vulcanizer

Arbe-Machine-Vulcanizer-Jewelry-Casting
I recently found a similar but larger press as surplus at a university surplus sale for about $70, did not buy it as I don't have a shop anymore. They should be available in most areas new or used. Darn heavy beasties though so watch shipping costs!
YMMV.
~Richard

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Voidmonster

But I'm also excited by the idea of boiling transparent horn in neatsfoot oil to improve its clarity -- that way lies some very good faux tortoise. I have everything I need for that experiment except blanks with good clarity. They're all streaky.

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Boil the horn in water to remove colour, will result some ugly, pale green colour. Dry it and soak in nitric acid to make it translucent and yellow/honey.
Just some old word I have remembered. Not my personal expertise.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Geezer

Here is a link to some presses with internal heating elements:

heated+mold+vulcanizing

https:Arbe-Machine-Vulcanizer

Arbe-Machine-Vulcanizer-Jewelry-Casting
I recently found a similar but larger press as surplus at a university surplus sale for about $70, did not buy it as I don't have a shop anymore. They should be available in most areas new or used. Darn heavy beasties though so watch shipping costs!
YMMV.
~Richard

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I have one of these in my basement. I got it used 25 years ago. Randy are you interested in trying it? Heavy old thing and expensive to ship more than 3 miles. :D

This is amazing to me! I'm thoroughly flabbergasted to say the least.

I don't even know where to begin.
... just erased a whole paragraph. :)

Much of this is very clear to me and you presented it all very well! Thank you!
And the posts on this thread also added very well to the content. Thanks to all.
:beer1:

This Is not my only question but I'll keep them to a minimum.
How on earth did you develop that beautiful design? It has a 3D element, how is that drawn and submitted to the fabrication company?

It feels like this is a weak point for me in regard to the whole process.

Again thank you for this excellent info! Totally awesome. Seriously. :bow :bow :bow

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MikeT

This is amazing to me! I'm thoroughly flabbergasted to say the least.

I don't even know where to begin.
... just erased a whole paragraph. :)

Much of this is very clear to me and you presented it all very well! Thank you!
And the posts on this thread also added very well to the content. Thanks to all.
:beer1:

This Is not my only question but I'll keep them to a minimum.
How on earth did you develop that beautiful design? It has a 3D element, how is that drawn and submitted to the fabrication company?

It feels like this is a weak point for me in regard to the whole process.

Again thank you for this excellent info! Totally awesome. Seriously. :bow :bow :bow

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Thanks for the kudos. As far as the designs, they begin as two dimensional, black and white artwork. Just draw it with a black pen or assemble it from black and white clip art and scan it in high contrast (black and white only, no grayscale). Those scans really need to be vectorized. Vector art is much smoother than .jpg, .bmp, .tiff etc. If you are unfamiliar with that terminology, look it up to gain a better understanding than I can get involved with here.

Once you have 1:1 vector art, you can submit to a die making facility like Ossowo. Their pages answer a lot of questions. The 3D effect is because the horn is being drawn (pushed) into a etched cavity. My designs, unlike the engraved molds or dies of the past are simple 2D designs that then are etched, which makes the third dimension. The depth of the etch (in this case 3/32 inch, makes for the 3D relief. As far as how it turns out is somewhat of a crap shoot because the etching depth is somewhat tapered from the resist to the final depth. Ergo, you have rounded contours at the high points of the pressing. That worked really well on the greyhound, but it was inherent in the process and somewhat serendipitous. Fine lines make less relief than thick ones, so the bulk of the dog was higher than the details and tail. Serendipity.

I am working on some designs that will explore more of the possibilities in relation to what art does what, but I am being a little slow about it. Summer does that to me: too much other stuff to do. Here is an example of the fineness of detail that I have attained so far:Attachment 293405
the Circle is 3/8" across. Feel free to ask as much as you want.Attachment 293407

This is so damn cool! But i couldnt even begin to do this. My stick figures look bad. No way could i figure out how to do it on a computer program. Some things were just not made for me to do. But i love the design on that last set.

Yeah, a while back I wanted to redesign some elements of a SAT life support chamber for commercial divers. Nothing serious, it's just that the original designers seemed to have the "brass tax" in mind and were not as worried about ergonomics or even accessibility of certain parts. Boss said give me something an engineer won't laugh at and we will see what we see.

Anyway I bought a CAD program. AND then I realized unless you're just smart with that kind of thing then you're gonna need to take a class. OR spend more time than you have learning it, when not gathering nuts and berries and taking down small prey in your 9-5.

Thank you for the reply! Much appreciated. I'm gonna make another go at this CAD program. The info you have presented and the others have added is enough for me to digest for a while now!

This is just a hobby for me as I have two jobs and working on building a business on the side that I want to launch in the winter... ADD that to a wife and two kids and my time is quite limited. One of the suggestions that a marriage counselor suggested was that I get time for my hobby... hehehe :D I don't think she knew how deep THAT rabbit hole of a hobby could go! :rofl2:

A couple more questions for now :)
I assume there are people with CAD experience that can help put together designs for simple octopi like myself whose arms are preoccupied...
How much is the standard expense for such help? I assume it would not be commercially viable unless one does it themselves, but for a hobby... outsourcing particular elements could make it possible...

Thanks again!
You guys rock!
:rock:

Actually, all you need to have is the ability to convert a scan to vectors, it doesn't have to be drawn in vectors to start with. There are online conversion sites, and someone with Photoshop can also do it. A full CAD system is not necessary, and yes, 3D CAD can be intimidating and difficult to wrap your head around if just starting out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Geezer

Here is a link to some presses with internal heating elements:

heated+mold+vulcanizing

https:Arbe-Machine-Vulcanizer

Arbe-Machine-Vulcanizer-Jewelry-Casting
I recently found a similar but larger press as surplus at a university surplus sale for about $70, did not buy it as I don't have a shop anymore. They should be available in most areas new or used. Darn heavy beasties though so watch shipping costs!
YMMV.
~Richard

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Howdy Richard,
Do you know what the compression that 2nd press achieves?
I was looking online and could not find the info.

I assume it will not achieve the 12tons and am wondering what any of you guys think is the minimum compression needed at the appropriate temps for horn... ???

I wonder if the jig can be modified with heating elements to achieve the right temp while using a standard shop press...?

Also. If it is at critical temperature for plasticity, and then is compressed... will the temp rise and possibly burn the horn a bit? ... making it brittle?

I do not know the tonnage of the press. being a screw press it could be a lot or little. I think a extended bar would help Larger force radius.
The original usage for vulcanizing rubber mold did not require a great pressure to be applied.
I would suggest contacting the sellers to find out more.
Good Luck!
~Richard