Thread: Cell Rot?

Picked this blade up for a steal at an antique mall (less than a bk value meal ) Got it home looked at it's gorgeous scales again. Seems to be some discoloring...

What do you guys think? i can't tell if the rust on the tang is associated with it since it seems pretty uniform.











It's a Geisen & Forsthoff, Solingen Germany, Scales say "Adoration Hand Forged". Seems like it's never been used. and if it has it wasn't very often.

Is the suspected part of the scales giving off a funny smell, like camphor?
I cant tell from the pics but it looks like the usual tang rust from long term disuse.

I can't detect any scent coming from the scales. But when i look at the scales they look solid all the way through, except in that one spot where it has lost it's color or something and is now translucent. Any other tests i can do to see if that is indeed what this is?

I couldn't tell you if your scales have the rot but I can tell you what I've done with some suspect scales without unpinning them from the blade. First I wash them as well as I can with Scrubbing Bubbles then rinse and dry them off. I take Semichrome and apply it using the end of a Q-tip I've pounded flat to get into the narrower parts between the scales.

So with the scales polished up inside and out, the blade cleaned of rust I put the razor in quarantine and wait and see if the blade becomes rusted again. If it does that would indicate the dreaded rot.

Start cleaning it up, and see what happens. Get out the sandpaper....Do you have a buffer, or are you using a Dremmel?

Seriously, I see what you mean, that spot co insides with the rust, but it looks like it's melted in the pic, maybe it's me.

Guys, How does rust affect Celluloid anyway? (They are celluloid, right) I am by far no expert, and I'm wondering how that works. I didn't think it could transfer. Is that what causes Scale rot? Or is it something different

I have unpinned the razor as I wanted a full restore.

The scales arent deformed at all, just discolored.

I will clean the blade then put it in quarantine as you said when I finish it up. I sure hope it isn't cell rot cause the scales have a great figure to them.

Originally Posted by zib

Guys, How does rust affect Celluloid anyway? (They are celluloid, right) I am by far no expert, and I'm wondering how that works. I didn't think it could transfer. Is that what causes Scale rot? Or is it something different

From a much earlier posting I made:

Celluloid was originally manufactured from collodion. Collodion is a substance which early photographers flowed onto a glass plate or piece of japanned tin as in the wetplate collodion process (I still take pictures using this process and manufacture collodion). To make the collodion suitable for use as a plastic material (as in Hyatt's first use of it in making billiard balls in 1868) it was added to camphor.

Collodion is an inherently unstable substance. It is made by treating pure cotton with a mixture of nitric and sulphuric acid - the end result is guncotton or nitrocellulose, the cellulose coming from the cotton. This is then dissolved in ether and alcohol to make a thick liquid. For plastics, powdered ivory, asbestos, bone and other filler material was added.

The very early celluloids could spontaneously ignite. Poorly washed/prepared celluloid released nitric acid vapour causing rust and the breakdown of other plastics. Others, to which acetone were added (1940s) would breakdown releasing acetic acid (vinegar) hence the "vinegar syndrome" in the breakdown of old celluloid film and movie stock.

The breakdown of these materials seems to depend on how they were kept and how much filler they had in them. Confined spaces, heat and darkness accelerate the decomposition of cellulose-acetate, while heat and exposure to sunlight tend to accelerate the decomposition of cellulose-nitrate.

In both cases, the filler material plays a large part. The more filler and the darker it is, the slower the rate of decomposition. Maybe this is because UV rays are prevented from penetrating far into the material, or becuase the higher percentage of filler means a smaller proportion of cellulose.

The process is irreversible, and once it starts in one object of a collection it will act like a catalyst and rapidly spread to the others.

There is still a danger of the earlier types catching fire, perhaps during buffing or mechanical sanding when a lot of heat is generated.

The problem was with washing the cotton after it had been immersed in acid solution to turn it into guncotton. Often it wasn't washed enough, so acids remained in it - those acids, or oxides of them, break down the celluloid over time and cause the blade to rust - so the rust isn't a cause, it's a symptom.

So there are two main types of celluloid, both giving different smells when they break down. I don't know how you can pin-point cell rot in the early stages for definite, but maybe keeping the scales in an airtight zip-bag with pH paper in it and as a control another bag kept under the same conditions with just the pH paper in it might work - if the pH paper is affected by out-gassing it would, presumably, change colour while the one in the control bag would not. Maybe.

Regards,
Neil.

I had a Giesen & Forsthoff Adoration razor a while back and it had a bit of that clear swirling to the scales.Mine was rust-free.Yours may have a problem mine didn't,just wanted to let you know that the scale coloration may be common.