Thread: Celluloid Rot

Thats a wealth of knowledge right there. Instead of a little hit on the "thanks" button, I wanted to post it big and obvious.

Would you know if there is any way to "seal" celluloid so that it slows or stops the process? otherwise, its only a matter of time before all the great scales of the razors of old will eventually be nothing more than a photo in a scrap book.

Originally Posted by Magpie

Thats a wealth of knowledge right there. Instead of a little hit on the "thanks" button, I wanted to post it big and obvious.

Would you know if there is any way to "seal" celluloid so that it slows or stops the process? otherwise, its only a matter of time before all the great scales of the razors of old will eventually be nothing more than a photo in a scrap book.

Unfortunately, it's only a matter of time, really.... as with all things. Ashes to ashes, and all...

DO note that a critical component of the decomposition is water. While this provides itself once the decomposition has begun, keeping celluloid scales dry and out of humid environments will lengthen their lives significantly.

Here we go again, blindly citing what happened to so-and-so instead of relying on personal experience - bring any threads to mind, gssixgun? (dont mention D@v@!) - you knew full well that I would "pipe up" didnt'cha?!

ALL I am doing is reporting MY OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCE and that is made quite manifestly obvious by carefully reading my thread in the first place (something we are both allegedly good at) ... If yours differs, or you don't like it - so be it, I don't care either way, all I am reporting is what I have seen with my own eyes.

As for Professor Kratchmers cranky 'formula' (didn't the reference you cited know the chemical formula of cellulose? how highbrow) I have celluloid based articles made in the 1860s that show no sign of degeneration. And that's not citing someone else's experience - it's citing my own.

FYI I have treated cellulose with sulphuric and nitric acid to make the basic pyroxyline constituent, prior to washing it and dissolving it in alcohol and ether - these are the preliminary steps to making both wetplate and solid collodion, aka celluloid. The only part missing from this is the addition of fillers and plasticisers for the solid variety. The integrety of the material depends on how thoroughly the pyroxyline is washed to remove any free acid. Properly washed it is quite stable.

I could cite other people's evidence to the contrary - but what's the point? Just pay your penny and take your choice, as they say - I'll save myself the effort.

Sadly, once the process has started it is irreversible - there is no way of re-balancing the unbalanced mix in the matrix of the scales and sealing does not help.

Regards,
Neil

Originally Posted by Neil Miller

As for Professor Kratchmers cranky 'formula' (didn't the reference you cited know the chemical formula of cellulose? how highbrow) I have celluloid based articles made in the 1860s that show no sign of degeneration. And that's not citing someone else's experience - it's citing my own.

I take offense at that, Mr. Miller... I was trying to be helpful...

To answer your question, there is no formula for cellulose, as it is an indeterminate number of sugar molecules linked together in exceptionally stable beta(1-4) linkages. These are so stable they can only be destroyed by fire or digested by very few fungi and protozoans! It is customary, then, to indicate cellulose as either the word 'cellulose' followed by any modifying groups, or as a chemical expression (CxHxOx)n.

Originally Posted by BKratchmer

To answer your question, there is no formula for cellulose ... a chemical expression (CxHxOx)n.

...pass

I was referring to the formula being 'cranky' - not you!

Neil:
Sorry here, but your telling people that there is NO danger...and IMHO that is dangerous and reckless period end of story...
Secondly, Why????? would you do that, that really makes no sense to me at all...Where is the payoff to you??? what if a Newb reads this and you're wrong in only one instance???? one time and that one time is his Great grand father's razor... Nope sorry you haven't convinced me, nor will you.... If you believe it and want to do that with your razors you go right ahead....

Me, I will continue to still spout off the same warnings I always have to every single person that asks "Better to be safe then sorry and isolate the suspected razor"...

That's fair comment Glen, and prudent advice, but I think you have misinterpreted what I said. I quote

"...I also believe that the "contageous" theory of cell rot is a myth. It's only my own opinion [...] If the stuff is going to break down it will, hastened by environmental factors [...] The acid vapour will attack neighbouring metal..."

What is dangerous and reckless in that?

The "why would I do that" question is really a non-question - there is no 'pay-off' to me, how could there be? My philosophy is that you make your own mind up based on informed advice, not hearsay. I don't like generalisations - they are seldom if ever true, and so-called facts based on the evidence of something that happened to someone who told someone else who told me are neither facts nor informed.

I'm not seeking to convince anyone - like I said, I don't care. I haven't got any particular axe to grind with regards to convincing or not convincing anyone.

There are many types of celluloid - the one that is really celluloid is celluloid nitrate/dinitrite, the others are covered by using celluloid as a blanket term, like using "Hoover" for all vacuum cleaners. CN isn't that common. It is an inherently unstable substance (like all plastics). Its level of stability is affected by how pure the chemicals used were, how efficiently it was cleaned, how pure the camphor plasticiser was, how pure the fillers were and whether or not the stabilisers were correctly measured in terms of alkalinity to offset the free acids left in the matrix of the compound.

Any of the above, or a combination, or one of the dyes or pigments used can hasten it's breakdown. The main problem is that the camphor leaches out of it, so a type of reverse nitration takes place, which generates acid vapour. Part of the reverse nitration also makes the material draw in moisture from the air, that is why controlling relative humidity is a factor in storing it. The release of acid vapour and the engendering of moisture act as a catalyst, hastening the breakdown process.

However, a 'catalyst' is just something that accelerates a process - it does not engender or precipitate that process. In case studies (and I have studied the Julie A. Reilly material already referred to elsewhere) it is remarked on that there is catalytic effect, the propensity for other cellulosic articles (paper and tissue were the ones specifically mentioned, not celluloid) to be affected by the waste products and the acid vapour attacking other articles like metal. We are all agreed that that is so.

I have already agreed that metal items (blades, specifically) will be attacked, which to my mind is a clear indication that the degrading celluloid be removed from a collection, or the blade freed from scales - surely any 'newb' has enough common sense to appreciate that?

The contributing factors as to how fast celluloid degrades are present at its time of manufacture, and that although many people repeat the need to isolate affected items from a collection (which I agree with) there is not one case study I have read that has incontrovertibly proved that one degrading bit of celluloid will start other celluloid degrading - the main reason for isolation being the infectious spread of damage to the blades.

A lot of celluloid has survived for a century or so. Collectors of celluloid buttons, purses, etc, have all reported many items that have not even begun to show the effects of any incipient rot - it's not just my experience.

No, I think you should re-read what I said, but with an open-mind, and you will see that I am only referring to a more-than-a-year long experiment I have made, and that I am expressing only my own opinion. The 'danger', 'recklessness', 'payoff to me' exist only in your own mind. And I mean that in the nicest way!

Regards,
Neil

A warning to anyone following this thread in plain everyday laymans terms no science needed...

If you choose to leave a suspected razor with cell rot next to clean razors you do so at your own risk...!!!!!

Thread locked.

Mod action pending.

-Rob