Thread: How did barbers hone a wedge in the olden days?

10 minutes to get ready to go to work....I will have to play with this later.

Originally Posted by Kees

Check the razor hone dept of ebay and you'll find most razor hones to be pre-cupped.

Kees
I don't think that you were trying to be funny necessarly, but your quote above sort of supports my suppostion that most barbers in the past did use dished stones, by design or by default.

Alx

I am quite sure that many barbers did not care too much. If you use the same finisher all the time I guess some cupping isn't necessarily bad. I have a Dutch barbers' manual that mentions barbers' dislike of honing, especially razors of customers who paid them to hone. Before the advent of synthetic hones most barbers only owned a coticule or an Escher. According to that book many customers offered blades in a poor state to their barber and expected them to restore the bevel. And not all barbers were very good at shaving, many accounts on that in the literature, one that I remember by Mark Twain.

And yes, I was trying to be sarcastic.

Lol, the Mark Twain article is quite funny, as per the norm for SC. Here's the article for any who haven't seen it:

-- If I do not get a chance to disgorge my opinions about barbers, I shall burst with malignant animosity.
Barbers an an unholy invention of Satan, and all their instincts are cruel and revolting.
They generally have an unwholesome breath; but do they care? No, far from it. They are proud of it. They get a man down in the barber-chair, where he cannot help himself, and then they hover over him, and give him blast after blast, and try to suffocate him. And when they see him suffering, they gloat over it in their secret hearts.
They know that the first two inches along the jawbone abaft a man's chin is tender, and for this reason they keep on shaving and scraping there till they trim off some of the skin, and the blood begins to come through and speck the pores. They know that that place will smart half a day, and annoy him to that degree that even the grave would be a happy refuge, and it does their profligate souls good to think of it.
They love to brush lather into a man's mouth; even if it is a man who never did them harm. It is nothing to them. They would brush that lather into that man's mouth though he were an angel. Nothing gratifies their degraded nature so much. They know he will taste it for an hour, and feel disagreeable, and they think it is smart. But I look upon it as an unspeakable outrage.
They think they are witty. They all think that. And so they leave a man, all soaped up and smarting, while they whet their razor on their hand, and bandy wretched, sickening jokes with their fellows. They are always trying to say clever things that will make stranger laugh -- especially those cheerful young German barbers; and so they keep on chirping, and chirping, and chirping, but they never succeed. Suppose a barber were to be suddenly cut off in the prime of his life, at such a time as this, without a moment's warning, in the midst of his awful career -- who can tell what that barber's feelings might be, or where that barber might go to?
And they lather a man, and then rub and scrub and chafe his face till they get it tender, so they can make him squirm when they shave him. Do they shudder? No. They view his sufferings with a holy calm. (And yet such men are allowed to vote. Such is republican government.) They are the most conceited race of creatures God has made. They rub and gouge and claw at a man's head, pretending to be oiling his hair and plowing up the dandruff, but all the while they are paying not even the most distant attention to what they are doing. On the contrary, they are admiring themselves in the glass, and smirking and smiling at themselves, and enjoying the way they have got their hair done up. Suppose they chance to run one of their greasy talons into a man's eye? -- they don't know it, and they don't care a cent any way, as long as they think they look charming. And as soon as ever they are done outraging a customer, they get up and spread before a glass and go to combing themselves afresh. Such things may be becoming in an ass, because it is only a dumb brute and not responsible, but they are loathsome in a man.
Barbers cannot carry around more than one idea at a time; it would break them down. They shave every man against the grain, and they part every man's hair behind. If he has got much hair on top of his head, they part it and stack it upon each side of the line as if they were digging a grave. And if he is as bald as a dome, what is it to them? Nothing whatsoever. They wool him, and plow him, and claw him all the same; and they grease him to that extent, that, if he takes his hat off in the sunshine he dazzles people's eyes, just the same as if he had a tin roof on. They haven't got any more discrimination than a clam.
Such is my opinion of barbers as a class; and I will state openly and aboveboard, that if I were king barbers would be worth fifteen hundred thousand dollars a piece the next day, because they would be so scare.
- MARK TWAIN.

Originally Posted by eKretz

Lol, the Mark Twain article is quite funny, as per the norm for SC. Here's the article for any who haven't seen it:

I walked out in the middle of a haircut one time when the $%#&* said "If I didn't like it l could leave!"

I got a good laugh at the next shop when I asked if I could get half off because it was already half done.

They did give me the Senior discount!

Originally Posted by Kees

I am quite sure that many barbers did not care too much. If you use the same finisher all the time I guess some cupping isn't necessarily bad. I have a Dutch barbers' manual that mentions barbers' dislike of honing, especially razors of customers who paid them to hone. Before the advent of synthetic hones most barbers only owned a coticule or an Escher. According to that book many customers offered blades in a poor state to their barber and expected them to restore the bevel. And not all barbers were very good at shaving, many accounts on that in the literature, one that I remember by Mark Twain.

And yes, I was trying to be sarcastic.

Kees
Thanks for your posting. All sarcasm aside I think that your posting moved the topic and my suggestion along. For me to prove that most barbers used dished stones would be the same for someone to prove that most barbers used flat stones. Without a time machine it is impossible.

Flattening stones, lapping stones is probably the most integrated honing suggested component on these forums. When someone asks why "my razor doesn't shave well?" or "I can not get HHT'S after honing?". It is so often recommended that you check the flatness of the stone or when was the last time you lapped it. Others ask "how do I lap my stones?" or "which is the best lapping plate?". In some form lapping figures in with questions or answers in many, many threads. Why?

One reason why so many questions eventually lead to less than flat stones is because a dished or concave stone surface is the most common state that a used stone is found in. The truth is that after the first few passes with a razor a dished hone profile begins, so I would call this it's common state. A lot of stones are put into storage in that dished or slightly dished state. The only state that a hone is flat is after it was lapped but not used.

In an era where tens of thousands of people are capable of reading the importance of flat stones by modern standards on these forums, and this topic continues to come up shows that a great majority of those fellows are uninformed. Try and relax and use your imagination as to the conditions in 1730 of the isolated barber struggling to eke out a living with minimal training and minimal tools, and maybe with just one stone. We pound each other here on the truly flat subject, chances are 300 years ago that their common impression of flat was looking at the horizon or a piece of carpenter planed wood, and those example although seeming straight and flat could hardly equate to their simple but cherished little hone that might not be easily replaced, and if it was stolen, broken or worn out he would be out of business. If a barber in the old days lapped his stone between each razor, he would just rinse away useful grit into the bucket of water he got from the well. These guys had other things on their minds and frugality was common before the modern era of mass production.

The famous cutler Perret of Paris, or Stodart of London would be considered educated or advanced in their fields at the time. They did publish their practices and publish their findings but we cannot in 2015 use the fact that just because these recomendations were published does not assure us as proof that the majority of barbers followed their advice, let alone heard of their advice or used their advice as a rule of thumb. The idea that a barber could read the writtings in French of Perret's description for making your stones perfectly flat or finding a translation into Greek, Spainish, English or any other language in 1780 is far fetched.

I am not saying that the barbers of the day were as Mark Twain described in a previous post either, but I am suggesting is that 300 years ago, men without access to worldwide information like we have the internet with these wonderful forums like this one that Lynn Abrams and others have so kindly provided, those barbers were most likely using dished stones because concave stones suited their situation for one reason or another, they had not been exposed to the theory of "flat is better" or that concave or slightly concave was the normal.

Now for actually honing wedges today. If you haven't tried honing one with a concave hone then you don't know what you are missing, and this may skew your opinion of the past. The world was not created flat, and the horizon of the sea is not flat but only appears to be so from your or my perspective. What we and modern industry deemed as flat just 50 years ago is now considered to be not so. Flat is now measured in sometimes as little as a few Microns where as 50 years ago it was measured in 1/1000 of an inch. Before diamond lapping plates (to the general public about 8 years ago) most of the old timers here considered the proper use of a hone as working all the corners of the stone. That is how I was taught in Japan when I worked there as a carpenter in the 1970s. Our throw away society has spilled over into the crafts world too. Almost every man to a T here has bought and sold more hones than a barber in the 1700s would even see in a lifetime let alone own himself. Grit is king in honing razors and professional barbers of the past cherished the girt that they held their hand and used each day with priorities that we cannot comprehend because our 2015 quest for more stones or better stones has influenced our opinion of their value. Most of us here are hobbiests, meaning that the major portion of our income is not derived from the use of razors or of hones. In saying this I know that some of you do charge for honing services or resale of stones, and there are barbers here too, and I sell stones to barbers and I can tell you that they are usually more careful with their purchases, more-so than the majority of fellows that I am in contact with who with easy access to the internet buy and sell their excess stones.

Iwasaki-san of Sanjo in Niigata Prefecture, Japan is credited with helping to instruct barbers through the publication of a booklet from the Barbers Union in the 1950s. Who is to say how greatly this influenced that generation of barbers in Japan. Not all barbers were Union members and in fact here in the U.S. as well as in Europe and I would guess worldwide a great majority of barbers in the 1950s were taught by their fathers, and this was the end of ancient barbering years when barbers actually honed their own razors (since then replaceable blades are more common). I have probably visited more barber shops in Japan than anyone here, and I hardly ever find a barber who uses a full progression of Mikawa nagura, a product that Iwasaki-san highly recommended, and a product that his successors do not currently exclussively use. With this in mind how realistic is it to continue to believe that the majority of barbers in the 1700's were taught to use flat stones, and how realistic is it to believe that two isolated theorist, Perret and Stodart and probably a few others were able to influence barbers, many of who were extremely isolated throughout the modern world to flatten their stone regularly. Not even Iwasaki-san who on a close knit island who all spoke the same language was not able to sway all barbers to use the same nagura. How often did he lap is stones? I would be curious.

I hope these few words calm the waters of this thread.

with my greatest respect to all of you,

Alex Gilmore

(and that really is a photo of me above, not one of some movie star with his rented grandchild)

Alex,

I guess you'll like this thead: http://straightrazorpalace.com/hones...ule-story.html

BTW: this is not me being lathered by the missus. I liked the picture, found it on the internet. Copy paste.

I did not go back and re-read the whole thread again but it seems there is an assumption that we actually know the history of a given hone. We are proposing a dished hone went from a barber say 150 plus years ago straight to Ebay, and that said barber was the original hone disher. (Made up term) Everyone who uses a hone is a hone disher.

I could see a dished hone working well if one was to only use one half of the stone per side of the razor. Meaning the end of the stroke would stop in the center. Once you start going up hill with the razor you would in essence be creating a secondary bevel and the steeper the incline the steeper the bevel angle, but on the down stroke the decline would or should be relatively stable. I think though if the dish got to far it wouldn't be all that great. I guess though we could post theories and ideas all day, but in the end will come down to testing it out. Would have to be a fairly soft stone like the nortons that would dish after a few honing sessions and keep track of the findings as the dish gets deeper and see how it effects how the razor shaves. Wish I had some extra stones lying around because this might turn out to be fun.

Originally Posted by alx

Kees
Thanks for your posting. All sarcasm aside I think that your posting moved the topic and my suggestion along. For me to prove that most barbers used dished stones would be the same for someone to prove that most barbers used flat stones. Without a time machine it is impossible.

Flattening stones, lapping stones is probably the most integrated honing suggested component on these forums. When someone asks why "my razor doesn't shave well?" or "I can not get HHT'S after honing?". It is so often recommended that you check the flatness of the stone or when was the last time you lapped it. Others ask "how do I lap my stones?" or "which is the best lapping plate?". In some form lapping figures in with questions or answers in many, many threads. Why?

One reason why so many questions eventually lead to less than flat stones is because a dished or concave stone surface is the most common state that a used stone is found in. The truth is that after the first few passes with a razor a dished hone profile begins, so I would call this it's common state. A lot of stones are put into storage in that dished or slightly dished state. The only state that a hone is flat is after it was lapped but not used.

In an era where tens of thousands of people are capable of reading the importance of flat stones by modern standards on these forums, and this topic continues to come up shows that a great majority of those fellows are uninformed. Try and relax and use your imagination as to the conditions in 1730 of the isolated barber struggling to eke out a living with minimal training and minimal tools, and maybe with just one stone. We pound each other here on the truly flat subject, chances are 300 years ago that their common impression of flat was looking at the horizon or a piece of carpenter planed wood, and those example although seeming straight and flat could hardly equate to their simple but cherished little hone that might not be easily replaced, and if it was stolen, broken or worn out he would be out of business. If a barber in the old days lapped his stone between each razor, he would just rinse away useful grit into the bucket of water he got from the well. These guys had other things on their minds and frugality was common before the modern era of mass production.

The famous cutler Perret of Paris, or Stodart of London would be considered educated or advanced in their fields at the time. They did publish their practices and publish their findings but we cannot in 2015 use the fact that just because these recomendations were published does not assure us as proof that the majority of barbers followed their advice, let alone heard of their advice or used their advice as a rule of thumb. The idea that a barber could read the writtings in French of Perret's description for making your stones perfectly flat or finding a translation into Greek, Spainish, English or any other language in 1780 is far fetched.

I am not saying that the barbers of the day were as Mark Twain described in a previous post either, but I am suggesting is that 300 years ago, men without access to worldwide information like we have the internet with these wonderful forums like this one that Lynn Abrams and others have so kindly provided, those barbers were most likely using dished stones because concave stones suited their situation for one reason or another, they had not been exposed to the theory of "flat is better" or that concave or slightly concave was the normal.

Now for actually honing wedges today. If you haven't tried honing one with a concave hone then you don't know what you are missing, and this may skew your opinion of the past. The world was not created flat, and the horizon of the sea is not flat but only appears to be so from your or my perspective. What we and modern industry deemed as flat just 50 years ago is now considered to be not so. Flat is now measured in sometimes as little as a few Microns where as 50 years ago it was measured in 1/1000 of an inch. Before diamond lapping plates (to the general public about 8 years ago) most of the old timers here considered the proper use of a hone as working all the corners of the stone. That is how I was taught in Japan when I worked there as a carpenter in the 1970s. Our throw away society has spilled over into the crafts world too. Almost every man to a T here has bought and sold more hones than a barber in the 1700s would even see in a lifetime let alone own himself. Grit is king in honing razors and professional barbers of the past cherished the girt that they held their hand and used each day with priorities that we cannot comprehend because our 2015 quest for more stones or better stones has influenced our opinion of their value. Most of us here are hobbiests, meaning that the major portion of our income is not derived from the use of razors or of hones. In saying this I know that some of you do charge for honing services or resale of stones, and there are barbers here too, and I sell stones to barbers and I can tell you that they are usually more careful with their purchases, more-so than the majority of fellows that I am in contact with who with easy access to the internet buy and sell their excess stones.

Iwasaki-san of Sanjo in Niigata Prefecture, Japan is credited with helping to instruct barbers through the publication of a booklet from the Barbers Union in the 1950s. Who is to say how greatly this influenced that generation of barbers in Japan. Not all barbers were Union members and in fact here in the U.S. as well as in Europe and I would guess worldwide a great majority of barbers in the 1950s were taught by their fathers, and this was the end of ancient barbering years when barbers actually honed their own razors (since then replaceable blades are more common). I have probably visited more barber shops in Japan than anyone here, and I hardly ever find a barber who uses a full progression of Mikawa nagura, a product that Iwasaki-san highly recommended, and a product that his successors do not currently exclussively use. With this in mind how realistic is it to continue to believe that the majority of barbers in the 1700's were taught to use flat stones, and how realistic is it to believe that two isolated theorist, Perret and Stodart and probably a few others were able to influence barbers, many of who were extremely isolated throughout the modern world to flatten their stone regularly. Not even Iwasaki-san who on a close knit island who all spoke the same language was not able to sway all barbers to use the same nagura. How often did he lap is stones? I would be curious.

I hope these few words calm the waters of this thread.

with my greatest respect to all of you,

Alex Gilmore

(and that really is a photo of me above, not one of some movie star with his rented grandchild)

You have forgotten (yet again) that there is info from way back to support lapping hones to flat whereas there is nothing to support dishing hones.

Read your reasoning (above) about Stodart and Perrer - the argument you extend about them applies equally well to your perverse argument re: dished hones - with a little exception viz. razor makers and cutlery makers of the time belonged to 'worshipful' guilds, such as the Company Cutlers, which involved a lengthy apprenticeship guided by a master. No need to read - they learned by following the master....

Oh and congratulations about visiting more barber shops than anyone else, even the japanese, I suppose...

Jesus wept, is this desperation or what? Or is it Groundhog day all over again....

As for the photo - I knew that!

Regards,
Neil