Thread: The Transition Stone

Originally Posted by Phrank

I have a Naniwa 3k and experienced the same result, feeling like I'm losing the edge at this point, and just moving on without knowing why...is it correct in thinking that the razor should still have that sticky gripping on the TPT and easily shave arm hair at the 3k/4k level?

Did you go past the 3k or did you drop back down to the 1k?

A few years ago there was a big push for people to try shaving off of their 1k edge. The premise was that if that edge cannot shave, then there is no point in polishing a non-shaving edge.

I took this a bit further and tried shaving off of every grit of a Naniwa SuperStone progression on a few different razors. One thing that I found consistently was that the 2k edge improved the 1k edge but the 3k edge did not seem to improve the 2k edge. Oddly though, the 5k edge always was a dramatic improvement. I did not pursue it further but thought I'd throw it out in case anyone else has experienced the same thing.

Generally after the transition and you still have an edge, no chips, just honing until you remove the previous stria, which for me is about 20 circles and 30 -40 laps, and I am ready to move up, if and only if the edge is chip free. If you see shiny spots on the edge, do more laps and bring the bevels back to meeting, do not try to do it later with a higher grit stone.

That is just a rough guide, I try to get the bevels as nice looking with an even stria pattern and the edge as straight as possible with no chips. Every time I try to cheat, I end right back where I knew I should have put in more time.

I use the TPT for a quick test and I just try to grab a hair in the early grits, then use magnification looking straight down on the edge.

Arm hair, for me is hit and miss, mine cuts up to 4k then stops and cut again after a good 12k edge, so I do not rely on it. The eyes don't lie, if you see shiny reflections, the edges are not fully meeting.

Can the edge get so thin it becomes a flexing foil edge? Probably, and if it breaks off then you have a new ragged edge, My solution is Jointing the edge, (lightly dragging the edge on the corner of the stone), removing the thin edge and making a new straight edge, then hone lightly to bring them back to meeting at a straight edge.

This is where learning your stones and knowing how much pressure you need, to get the results you want. Worst case, just joint the edge and set it again, some time I have to Joint a couple times, just takes a minute. If the edge looks too chippy, Joint it to get to good steel.

Originally Posted by Phrank

I quite enjoyed the other thread.

As I mentioned, I seem to get a bevel set (cutting arm hair easily, TPT), progress to the Norton 4k, and would after finishing on the 4k, lose the arm hair cutting and there would be no "gripping" feeling on the thumb pad test.

I invested in the Naniwa 3/8, and again, while not as pronounced, the dilemma for me has always been consistency and when to move on to the next hone. My edge would look good in the loupe, easily cut arm hairs, grip my thumb pad, and would frequently disappear altogether, or be degraded to various degrees. The just over a dozen razors I've done to completion have been nice, but taking 4-6 hours, sometimes multiple sessions of that, is clearly indicating I'm missing something.

The Naniwa 10mm 2k is very reasonably priced, so I'm hoping further practice, and smaller steps at the beginning will help me understand how to achieve consistency.

Great thread - thanks.

I've lost my edge like you a few times after the bevel setting stone . I've realised that it happens when I apply pressure or to much pressure on the mid level stones.

Interesting thread. Just as a comment, my go-to bevel setter is a Shapton Pro 2k. It would be interesting to see someone else forego the 1k althogether and start from a set bevel from a 2k. My bevel set test off the 2k is the cherry tomato test.

My "tweener" is a suita, about 5k synth equivalent, and on slurry it's fast enough to be a capable bevel setter if there aren't problems that need correcting. It is excellent at removing coarser marks and I feel the slurry helps hone off those pesky edge issues like wire edges, fins, etc. after this stone, I do a half stropping and test with HHT. The edge should cut hair cleanly at this point, if it doesn't, the edge is not ready to progress up the food chain. I get out the loupe and start looking for problems that need correcting.

Honing a razor is all about "pressure management" from the shape of the edge to the prevention of wires and foils and finishing the edge.

Cheers, Steve

Personal I've only had the ragged/crumbly edges on razors with a lot of hone wear or excess oxidation on the bevel. I'll either add more tape or use the corner of the stone to "edge" the blade or both. My usual stones are King deluxe 1200 used first with slurry, then a Norton 4k/8k then a finisher

Originally Posted by Steve56

My bevel set test off the 2k is the cherry tomato test.

Please don't waste food

Interesting observations, Euclid. I never had the problem you describe. For bevel setting I use a 1.5K Shapton Pro followed by a 5K Shapton Pro, both Japanese market ones. The 1.5K Shapton is a bit slow, I am still looking for a lower grit hone for setting bevels on ebay specials.

Euclid440,

For about the last year, I have followed the 1k bevel set with a coticule (a La Veinette) and fairly heavy slurry, working down to light slurry, followed by stropping on genuine linen & leather (about 30 passes each). This leaves (for me) the edge in a good position for the next set of stones.

Some of my more 'chippy' and 'awkward' razors have responded very well to this method.

Have fun

Best regards

Russ

Here's an interesting take on the transition stone that just arrived in the mail from Stuart Tierney. It's a huge Suehiro hone, conventional ceramic soaker 1000 grit 35mm thick, topped with a 10mm layer of hard 2000 grit Gokumyo type. The idea is to use the 1000 grit for the heavy lifting then the 2000 grit Gokumyo to dress the edge.

It will be interesting to see how this one plays out, and if I actually use the 1000 grit in a razor sequence.

Here's the link to the TFJ page on this stone:

Suehiro Debado-Ryu #1000/2000 combination stone. : Tools from Japan, Japanese woodworking tools direct from Japan.

And that's a Filly 14 lookin' small on this huge hunk of hone. It seems flat enough but will probably need some light dressing of the Gokumyo side.

Cheers, Steve

Having the edge fall apart after bevel set and higher stones has been a problem for me too. So far I use a Chosera, Nani 3/8 combo, Nani 12k and I recently got a Suehiro 20k.

I get a wicked sharp, even bevel on the 1k with a great TPT, only to loose it as I work through my progression. The test shaves were not comfortable or close.

This has happened with three diferent razors. On two of them I found micro chipping when I used my 60x loupe. I went back to the
8k and did very light strokes until the micro chips were gone.

I have not started on the third one yet.