Thread: Slurry Dulling

I think both Jimbo and 32t make interesting points and compelling speculation how the mechanics of garnets might work. I have to ask if there is sufficient particle( garnet) dulling really happening at modest honing pressures and short time spans engaged in that activity. Then you open up other cans of worms that only a gemologist might even understand about what it takes to break down a garnet and how much. Certainly a gem can be dulled and rounded people throw these things in rock tumblers and do it all the time but personally I feel its more about getting your blade off the rolling rocks and closer to the ones that aren't moving, those embedded in the stone surface will be doing more effective blade scratching. It may be a complicated thing or we maybe overlooking something simple.

Originally Posted by Jimbo

So consider a single garnet in isolation rolling around in a slurry, bumping up against other garnets and the razor and the hone surface etc. Eventually, if it stays in the system long enough (and assuming they don't split into bits), that garnet will end up for all intents and purposes a sphere rather than a rhombic dodecahedron as the edges wear away. I mean, they are close anyway I think - like little soccer balls, basically.

I think however the bits of the garnet that come away from the larger portions will not be spherical until they have also spent some time rolling around, then of course the bits coming away from the smaller spherical garnets will no longer be spherical... and so on.

Would this not lead to a very very fine slurry full of smaller garnets that are not spherical.

Wait no, I answered my own question.... The bigger particles would prevent the blade from contacting the smaller ones... similar to this if the circles and dots represent the garnets


Blade-Blade-Blade-Blade-Blade
OOOooO..O..o.o.oOOOO.O.O...O.oo

Originally Posted by Razorfaust

I think both Jimbo and 32t make interesting points and compelling speculation how the mechanics of garnets might work. I have to ask if there is sufficient particle( garnet) dulling really happening at modest honing pressures and short time spans engaged in that activity. Then you open up other cans of worms that only a gemologist might even understand about what it takes to break down a garnet and how much. Certainly a gem can be dulled and rounded people throw these things in rock tumblers and do it all the time but personally I feel its more about getting your blade off the rolling rocks and closer to the ones that aren't moving, those embedded in the stone surface will be doing more effective blade scratching. It may be a complicated thing or we maybe overlooking something simple.

Yes, that is true isn't it? Garnets are already basically soccer ball in shape, so too many rolling around in a slurry (whether smoothed out or not) would possibly prevent the steel contacting the embedded garnets.

Still, that doesn't explain the purported plateau effect that occurs over time with an undiluted slurry. And, don't they use slurry to speed up the cutting? For bevel setting?

See, this is why I don't use coticules. They make my head hurt.

James.

Originally Posted by Jimbo

Yes, that is true isn't it? Garnets are already basically soccer ball in shape

Not when they fracture into conchoidal shapes but no idea what the consequence of that may be.
More headaches ?

I tried a coticule on a good puma straight razor three days in a row. It shaved the hair good but when I splash on the aftershave it burned. So I went back to the Arkansas.

So you plateau on slurry if starting from bevel set. If already past that at shave ready.. and you use a slurry the edge gets "slurry dulled" if using a thicker slurry back to the level you would plateau at if starting from the ground up. That would be slurry dulling in my eyes.. I think slurry dulling / slurry limiting should be used interchangeably.

Originally Posted by Jimbo

Yes, that is true isn't it? Garnets are already basically soccer ball in shape, so too many rolling around in a slurry (whether smoothed out or not) would possibly prevent the steel contacting the embedded garnets.

Still, that doesn't explain the purported plateau effect that occurs over time with an undiluted slurry. And, don't they use slurry to speed up the cutting? For bevel setting?

See, this is why I don't use coticules. They make my head hurt.

James.

I think it does explain it for reasons I stated in my first post. The slurry acts on the blade in many ways you have abrasion happening at the the bevel where the stone contacts the steel, or more accurately rides above it on little garnets lets say. You also have garnets bashing the front end of the edge. Steel is being removed from bevel face and making the blade sharper and the stuff hitting the front also is dulling it, at some point an equilibrium of the two forces happens when the edge gets fine enough the garnets hitting the front wont allow any more refinement of the apex. You need to get rid of the garnets swimming around in front of the blade to make any more progress or your just sand blasting the edge. So dilution or even no slurry at all will in fact get you further at this point removing that negative effect on the blade edge. From this point bevel steel removal refines the apex with no more slurry garnets dulling the edge back down. That's finishing the razor otherwise your just spinning your (garnets) wheels

Originally Posted by Razorfaust

Steel is being removed from bevel face and making the blade sharper and the stuff hitting the front also is dulling it, at some point an equilibrium of the two forces happens when the edge gets fine enough the garnets hitting the front wont allow any more refinement of the apex. You need to get rid of the garnets swimming around in front of the blade to make any more progress or your just sand blasting the edge. So dilution or even no slurry at all will in fact get you further at this point removing that negative effect on the blade edge. From this point bevel steel removal refines the apex with no more slurry garnets dulling the edge back down. That's finishing the razor otherwise your just spinning your (garnets) wheels

Well put :thumbsup:

All my hones used to hurt my head, then I built sturdier shelves.

Originally Posted by Razorfaust

You also have garnets bashing the front end of the edge. Steel is being removed from bevel face and making the blade sharper and the stuff hitting the front also is dulling it, at some point an equilibrium of the two forces happens when the edge gets fine enough the garnets hitting the front wont allow any more refinement of the apex. You need to get rid of the garnets swimming around in front of the blade to make any more progress or your just sand blasting the edge.

This is what some people call "slurry dulling", no?

Originally Posted by S0LITARYS0LDIER

I think slurry dulling / slurry limiting should be used interchangeably.

I think the term dulling is completely misleading...it should only be limiting.

Here is a visual. There is a large field/pasture very flat but some rocks poking up here and there. Clearly it is a rocky soil. This is your hone.

By raising a slurry, you are taking all the rocks that lie within say a foot of the surface and putting them on top of the soil. Now the field is completely strewn with rocks.

Someone comes along an grabs you and begins dragging you behind a horse across the field, Not a fun time...The only way to improve your "ride" is by clearing those excess rocks off the field (diluting your slurry). The ride will never be better than the field is without the loose stones...Honing on water...the ultimate limit of your hone.