Thread: Experimenting with some jointing techniques

I'm a big fan of the TNT for multiple reasons, one of which is to help clean the edge up. I've always done it at the 1k level and no more after that for fear of harming the edge. If there seemed to be an edge issue at the higher levels I would strop a little between stones. I recently honed an ERN that looked good under 60x magnification and was pretty good on the HHT. Test shave was horrible so back to the hones. 20 laps 8k, 15 laps 12k and all was well on the test shave. This got me thinking about false edges and the conditions that I can't see under 60x. So I started reading more about jointing an edge by very lightly downstroking it on the corner of a hone and bringing the edge back on the next stone to clean everything up. I honed up a German 1/2 hollow today and figured I'd do some experimenting. I honed out some light pitting and did a light breadknifing stroke on the corner of the 1k. I normally would have downstroked it on a glass after restoration work. I was surprised at how much faster the edge came back after the stone stroke vs. the glass. 10 light strokes and it was popping arm hairs again. The more I thought about it, this seems like a better technique. The stone grinds away all the little nasties vs. the glass smashing and bending the edge(in my way of thinking). I then did a light TNT after the 5k and 8k with the intention of keeping the edge straight and clean. I was also surprised that this didn't seem to damage the edge upon testing afterward. Then on to the 12k and stropping as usual. Then on to the HHT. This is not a pass or fail test for me. It's all about feel and this one felt a little better then most. I use my 5yo daughters hair(it's never been cut) and it was popping the really fine baby hair ends that most of my blades start to struggle with. I'll give it a test shave this evening. I'm curious to hear others experience and thoughts about "jointing" the edge between hones. It seemed kind of drastic until I actually tried it. I'm eager to do some more experimenting.

Originally Posted by BeJay

I then did a light TNT after the 5k and 8k with the intention of keeping the edge straight and clean. I was also surprised that this didn't seem to damage the edge upon testing afterward.

On the TNT, I've heard guys say that it will damage an edge. I used to go to barber shops in the 1980s, with a few vintage razors, show them to the aged barbers who'd been cutting hair for 30-50 years, to break the ice. They would get theirs out and show me their stash.

Shaving was rarely done by barbers by that time, and I was able to pick up some cool old razors. I can't tell you how many barbers did a TNT right in front of me, with their working razors, to demonstrate to me that they were sharp. Anyway ...... I too limit the TNT to after the 1k. Beyond that it is the TPT (thumb pad test)

Dulling on glass was introduced on SRP by Bart AFAIK. He had proposed some sort of contest that never came to fruition. He was going to prepare some Double Arrows and send them round the world after he had them corrected for honing, and rescaled. He suggested that dulling on glass would give everyone an even playing field so that there was no doubt everyone was starting from square one ....... IIRC.

I tried it once. Then thought what the hell is the sense of dulling a dull razor even more ?

I first saw 'jointing' done by Harellson Stanley, famed tool honer, and the owner of Shapton USA. Someone did a video of him honing his first razor on Shapton glass stones. He also did his first straight razor shave with the W&B wedge he had honed. It was painful to watch.

He blew my mind when he jointed the blade on a high grit stone. Early on, may have been after setting the bevel, may have been before. But the second time he did it before final finishing. I had never seen or heard of such a thing in my long life before then.

I've tried it, but I don't do it since. I've had much success in standard honing techniques, microchip removal, and all. It is working, so I needn't fix it.

BTW, if you hit the enter key every now and again it creates a break in the text, as you can see from this post, and makes it easier on the eyes. Especially if it is paragraphs long.

I do joint the edge as it is currently being called. It all depends on what I am doing. If it is restoration honing I do it often. After the 1k, 4K and 8K. That is usually it. Theories are every where and I expect to hear a few in this thread. My theory on restoration honing is that the damage to the metal goes beyond the surface and even though the bevel looks clean and fresh there is sun surface damage. By jointing the edge as we go and then bringing it back into plane we are removing the tip of the fin, which is where the damage shows. By repeating it as we go we take a smaller and smaller piece as we work up through the grits leaving a "deeper" clean on the edge and avoiding a short lived or chippy edge and a prickly shave.
Another time I use it is to remove false positives in a problem child. Sometimes with a razor that looks good but does not shave well I want to be certain that the edge I am current honing is the one that I am feeling and seeing.

Quite often I take a (very) light swipe at a smooth glass bottle as the 1k is skipping a part of the bevel to do a light, new beginning and bring that part in with the rest. I suppose it is lightly bending over the existing fin so I can hone it off and start over.
In fact, I usually strop it on stiff fabric before going back to the hone.

Everyone has things they do at different times, I think.
I guess a TNT would do the same at a higher level, but honestly don't think I have needed to. Just me.

On the TPT, I cannot get it! I suppose I am a bit odd as I had rather do a finger pad test.

Oh well. I suppose it is mostly because I am quite lazy!

My ideas behind the Corner of the Stone -vs- a Flat surface like a glass or the top of the stone

So looking at some Barber hones and Stones you often find a corner slice or two on them
Doing way more restores than simply honing I embraced "killing the edge" long before it was called anything else
The corner stroke made the most sense to me as it seems that it kills the very fin and also helps to clean up the sides of the bevel at the same time..
It seems to make it easier to bring back the edge and leaves a smoother feel to the edge to me..

I doubt there is much difference between any of the techniques, I also like the TNT to gently kill an edge for non-restore honing

Try it all, and see what works for you, or none at all, for me it is all about what I see under Magnification after the first 1k set and decide from there what to do

Hone on

I do joining at the 1k level mainly, but only when needed. I look at the bevel as I set it and join if it develops wire edge, which is easily visible at 30x magnification.
I have done joining at higher level including at 20k followed by a few strokes on the same stone with no ill effects. At the high grits, 10 strokes on a paddle strop will have the same effect IMO and will be a lot less risky for the edge.

All good ideas, I think!
Since it seems a good reason to employ this technique is due to an edge which is not quite even, I could add this.

Lightly does it. Never bear down, but try to 'swoop' it upon the intended surface.
Think of making things nice and linear, yet work toward some semblance of a smile.

Imperative, I think!

Experience shows that physically 'lightening up' on a frowning spot will be beneficial.
You must bring the rest to the low spot. Only way.

So, depending upon the degree of the offence, a thumbnail, glass bottle, even the corner of Glenn's barber hone (shudder!), can all be used to progressively smooth that edge to take a keen bevel.
Can't screw it up, now, can you? It's already screwed-up!

It depends on the edge, I prefer to joint the edge, on the corner of the stone as it cut off the flash and makes a straight edge.

I try to get as straight an edge, on a 1k as possible, rather than fight a crumbling edge on higher grit stones. So once the bevel is set, I joint it and reset the bevel on the 1k, with light laps.

I usually lightly joint, additionally at the 8 or 12k, very lightly, then reset on the high grit stone. I also strop on a Chrome Oxide, Sailcloth canvas strop before going to the finishing stone.

I see no point in dulling the edge on glass, once the bevels are flat the edge should come back to meeting, in just a few laps.

As said when doing edge repair or after buffing or sanding, usually requires more edge removal to get to solid steel.

When the original discussions about killing an edge came about. I said that it made no sense to make the edge worse before starting to set the bevel. It made as much sense as breaking your legs as your first step for training for a marathon.

Most of the time, I feel the same way about joining or jointing an edge. It's just not necessary. The edge is formed by the meeting of the planes of the bevels. That's it. That's all the edge is. You drag the edge along the corner of a hone and the bevels no longer meet so you have to hone more to get the edges to meet again.

Scratches that exist in the bevels can extend to the edge, where they make the edge slightly sawtoothed. That's not a problem as those scratches are removed as you go up through progressively more fine grit hones. Keep in mind that those scratches are removed by removing the outer layer of the bevels, which means the edge recedes too, but as it does so, the sawteeth get proportionately smaller.

If you join or joint the edge, you still have to get those bevels to meet again. When you do that, you have new bevels with new scratches that make new sawteeth in the edge. Maybe those sawteeth are a little smaller, but who cares? Honing will eliminate those sawteeth without any need for joining or jointing.

Progressive honing up the grits smoothes the bevels by removing steel to make the scratch depth shallower. When the scratches are more shallow, the sawteeth become smaller. Joining or jointing does not change that.

Originally Posted by Utopian

Most of the time, I feel the same way about joining or jointing an edge. It's just not necessary. The edge is formed by the meeting of the planes of the bevels. That's it. That's all the edge is. You drag the edge along the corner of a hone and the bevels no longer meet so you have to hone more to get the edges to meet again.

Utopian. You say that most of the time it's not necessary, implying that it sometimes is necessary. In what situation would you use this technique? it's not a toothy edge that I'm trying to address. It's a malleable foil edge that just bends out of the way when it's laid on a stone. I'm sure we have all seen this under magnification. I'm hoping to address this at a level that I can't see with my 60x loupe.