Thread: How Bevel is Affected by Taping

Originally Posted by JoshEarl

I haven't read this entire thread yet, as I'm doing some catching up. But English, I gotta disagree with you again on this one. There isn't one "perfect" angle that all the manufacturers used, nor is the range of acceptable angles as narrow as you think.

The last razor that I made was a special project for someone. He asked me to intentionally make the spine thicker than normal. The "normal" edge angle range for razors seems to be 15 to 17 degrees. This one was almost 21 degrees. That would be like a razor that had been honed with tape for 100 years of normal use, to make up an impressive-sounding number.

It shaves just fine; he says it feels like a regular wedge. I've also made a couple of razors that were probably down in the 12 to 14 degree range, and they also worked just fine.

I understand that you have strong feelings on this, and that's cool. But watch the rhetoric. Saying things like "honing with tape is hiding the truth" is accusing an awful lot of people of either lying or being unethical. Don't change your position, if that's what you believe, but do be careful what you say about others.

Josh

+1, I completely agree with Josh. I let a client know if I have had to tape the spine or not. I do not like to tape, but sometimes it's the only way a blade will have enough of an angle to be able to have the thickness of steel to hold an edge. On occasion, a client will send me a razor to hone that they tried to hone first with a knife sharpener. Sometimes they will mention it but sometimes they don't. Guys, it is so obvious when a razor has been sharpened on a knife sharpener. I have had to tape the spine on some of these razors just to get to the edge. It is either that or remove a heck of lot of steel to make the bevel.

Let's stick to the topic.

As I continue to mull over this exciting thread, more thoughts...

I agree with the conclusion Brad reached, in that one layer tape has very little impact on the angle of the edge. An edge produced with tape won't shave any differently than one created without tape.

However... The slight difference in angle is enough to affect things a bit when honing. This has sort of been implied, so I thought I'd make it explicit.

On a regular full-hollow razor, the tiny difference will probably go away quickly if you're using a Norton or other fast-cutting stone. Maybe half a pyramid or so would probably do it. So you don't have to undergo a huge bevel restoration project if you decide to rehone a razor that previously had been taped. Just don't expect to do five touch-up strokes on a barber hone.

On a wedge, it's going to take more work. It would probably be beneficial to work on the 4K Norton for a while, or maybe even drop down to a good 1K stone.

I just didn't want anyone to get the idea that the tape/no tape thing is irrelevant. It's not, but it's not a big deal to "convert" a razor, either.

Josh

The short version: Tape is mostly a cosmetic issue and makes little to no difference to the final result. It'll strop up just fine either way. One layer of tape will add about one degree total included angle...

It's mostly just a "personal preference" thing. The main difference is avoiding honing wear on the spine.

Doesn't the "tape thread" come up every 2 or 3 months?

Originally Posted by JoshEarl

I've also made a couple of razors that were probably down in the 12 to 14 degree range, and they also worked just fine.

I have a razor that IIRC is 8 1/2 degrees and that's definitely too narrow of an angle, at least for that particular steel and temper. It hones up beautifully and takes an absolutely wicked edge that can't survive even one shave. I'm not talking microchips either, but visible-to-the-naked-eye sized chips, and I once saw a piece that tore and folded over. One of these weeks I should work my way up through increasing tape layers and see where it starts behaving; that would provide an interesting data point for where the low end really is...

Isn't there a video on youtube of some guy shaving with an axe? Probably not something you want to do every morning, but clearly this isn't nearly so precise a science as we would like to believe.

Originally Posted by mparker762

I have a razor that IIRC is 8 1/2 degrees and that's definitely too narrow of an angle, at least for that particular steel and temper. It hones up beautifully and takes an absolutely wicked edge that can't survive even one shave. I'm not talking microchips either, but visible-to-the-naked-eye sized chips, and I once saw a piece that tore and folded over. One of these weeks I should work my way up through increasing tape layers and see where it starts behaving; that would provide an interesting data point for where the low end really is...

Isn't there a video on youtube of some guy shaving with an axe? Probably not something you want to do every morning, but clearly this isn't nearly so precise a science as we would like to believe.

That would be EXCELLENT!!

John Juranitch shaved with an axe to prove that anything made of hardened steel can be sharpened to a shaving edge. People still don't buy it.

...a rose by any other name, apparently, stinks.

It'll take awhile to do. I know that it will hold an edge if I tape the spine to a 15 degree honing angle, so I've got a set of bounds and just have to binary search that space. I'm in the middle of an experiment right now, but maybe in a few weeks I can get started.

Originally Posted by mparker762

It'll take awhile to do. I know that it will hold an edge if I tape the spine to a 15 degree honing angle, so I've got a set of bounds and just have to binary search that space. I'm in the middle of an experiment right now, but maybe in a few weeks I can get started.

I have a marginally related question. If you want to be sure that the honing angle is 15 degrees, do you have to use a different number of tape layers after several hone sessions in order to keep the honing angle constant?

Originally Posted by hoglahoo

I have a marginally related question. If you want to be sure that the honing angle is 15 degrees, do you have to use a different number of tape layers after several hone sessions in order to keep the honing angle constant?

The things we come up with... Good thought. It's times like this that I'm SOOOOO glad we have an Advanced Honing forum. I can see the poor newbie heads spinning now...

One other thing I wanted to throw out there was that tape wears away as you hone. If I'm doing some heavy-duty edge restoration on the 600- or 1200-grit hones, the tape gets eaten away. It's a good idea to put a fresh layer of tape on there before you move from fixing the bevel to really honing the razor. Otherwise you're somewhere between one and zero layers of tape.

Josh

Originally Posted by hoglahoo

I have a marginally related question. If you want to be sure that the honing angle is 15 degrees, do you have to use a different number of tape layers after several hone sessions in order to keep the honing angle constant?

Well, the edge will wear away and the spine won't over time. So the blade gets narrower and , other things being equal, the angle increases. Which would mean that to maintain an original 15 degree angle you'd have to remove layers of tape. That's if you had several layers to begin with. And I doubt that only several honing sessions would be enough to make a significant difference, but I guess it depends on how you hone.

Originally Posted by JoshEarl

The things we come up with... Good thought. It's times like this that I'm SOOOOO glad we have an Advanced Honing forum. I can see the poor newbie heads spinning now...

One other thing I wanted to throw out there was that tape wears away as you hone. If I'm doing some heavy-duty edge restoration on the 600- or 1200-grit hones, the tape gets eaten away. It's a good idea to put a fresh layer of tape on there before you move from fixing the bevel to really honing the razor. Otherwise you're somewhere between one and zero layers of tape.

Josh

That's a good point Josh, and it not only applies to "restoration" grits. I've had tape wear through on the Norton 4K as well.

James.

The tape wearing away can also show a slight warp in the spine or the edge, as it will only wear in one spot.... I just love adding wrinkles to this thread