Thread: How Bevel is Affected by Taping

Wouldn't you need to tape that cuff to protect it from hone wear? Otherwise, wouldn't the angle be altered as it wore down, or would you need a separate one for each razor?

Gents this is a long thread and I'm about to head up for some sleep soon so I hope this hasn't already been asked - but you've given to a question I've had for a few weeks.

If one does use tape on the spine when honing, then after some number of hones the angle of the edge will become measurably more angular and I think that's been proven out here pretty well!

However, if the tape is then removed for subsequent honing, would the original manufactured edge angle return? Or an angle fairly close to the original? It just seems intuitively that after removing the tape, that the "top" of the new edge angle would be the first bit of metal to connect to the stone along with the spine. After that edge "top" has been honed away, and once the stone is connecting to both the edge and spine again, the resulting angle of the edge would be damned close to what it was originally. Unless the width of the blade had been significantly reduced (say from 7/8 to 4/8).

It seems strange stuff keeps me awake at night!

Originally Posted by Seraphim

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Since you will then have to re-set the bevel with the tape removed. In the end you have to remove the same amount of material, and in my opinion it will be easier to do that with a single bevel, as you know when to stop when the chip is gone.

Why do you have to remove the tape to set the bevel? On the last razor I sharpened, once I got it popping hairs off of a 1k stone, I added a layer of tape to set the bevel a little wider. This seemed to work very well... but as a newbie I don't really know how well it actually worked. Should I not do this anymore?

Thanks,
SHuka

Originally Posted by shuka

Why do you have to remove the tape to set the bevel? On the last razor I sharpened, once I got it popping hairs off of a 1k stone, I added a layer of tape to set the bevel a little wider. This seemed to work very well... but as a newbie I don't really know how well it actually worked. Should I not do this anymore?

Thanks,
SHuka

If you visualize it adding tape would cause a double bevel or you would have to hone completely through and beyond your existing bevel to create a wider bevel. In general a narrower bevel is preferable IMO. You live with what the geometry of the razor dictates.

The question of taping a spine or not has been a hotly debated one with advocates on either side of the issue. Doing a forum search for "tape" and reading the threads would be very instructive if not even more confusing.

IMO if you are new to honing taping the spine with one layer might be a good idea until you have your honing chops down. Once you feel competent and are getting consistent results you may decide to go one way or the other. I formerly was in the tape the spine camp but now find myself going the other way.

Hi Jimmy -
Actually, the way I found this thread was through searching for "tape" and "set" - and yeah, I'm confused!

Doesn't adding an extra piece of tape make the second bevel you mention (i.e. a micro bevel) a wider bevel at the edge of the blade? Then there is no need to hone beyond the existing bevel - in fact, this is why I don't understand why people set the bevel with tape, and then removed the tape. In that case I see why they would have to hone through the original, until the stone begins to "work" on the edge.

However, I guess from your reply that I don't have to worry about doing anything too bad. I think I'll keep adding tape, and maybe when I'm more confident I'll make a case for it (if I still find it working well).

Thanks -
Shuka

Originally Posted by shuka

Doesn't adding an extra piece of tape make the second bevel you mention (i.e. a micro bevel) a wider bevel at the edge of the blade? Then there is no need to hone beyond the existing bevel - in fact, this is why I don't understand why people set the bevel with tape, and then removed the tape. In that case I see why they would have to hone through the original, until the stone begins to "work" on the edge.

IMO if you have a lot of heavy work to do on an ebay special or a flea market find adding tape to set the bevel will save undue spine wear. Once the bevel is corrected if your preference is to hone sans tape then it won't take a significant amount of honing to get to a corrected bevel with the no tape geometry. So that is my take on why to do it that way.

Some people prefer a double bevel, notably Tim Zowada and Bart has recommended that in his coticule only honing thread. It is a matter of what each individual feels works best for them. There is some evidence that a double bevel may be stronger than a single and may actually require less work than a single bevel.

Right now I prefer a single but I haven't experimented with the double concept to come to a firm conclusion for myself. The one Zowada I have is an awesome shaver with the double but I haven't done any on the razors I've honed. Down the road a ways I will experiment with it. More fun & games.

tan A= opposite/adjacent=a/b

If the cutting edge is angle A. As hone wear reduces the spine thickness (side "a"), the edge honing also reduces total blade width (side "b"), thus maintaining edge geometry "A".


I think?
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The edge geometry remains the same only if the edge wear or blade width is reduced the same as the spine wear. Which I don’t think it is in all cases because there are way too many variables, type and quality of steel, amount of pressure, location of pressure, honing medium and stroke type are a few.

Additionally the only thing that matters is how it cuts facial hair and not all hair is the same. In speaking with barbers, they tell me it varies greatly from person to person and they all can feel the difference in the scissor.

I have been able to get some older, more spine worn razors to shave better for me with the use of tape and micro bevels.

Woodworkers and carvers have “tailored” blade angle for years depending on the application, type of wood, density, figure and desired finish. The majority of us do the same as we hone our razors to shave each of us best.

So yes the taped wider angle bevel does produce a thicker stronger bevel and there by edge, but does it work best for you? That is the question, at least it is for me.

So something else to think about… if angle matters, fine tuning the angle maybe just as important as the quest to find the best final polishing medium… that works for you.

Originally Posted by M Martinez

The edge geometry remains the same only if the edge wear or blade width is reduced the same as the spine wear.

I have been thinking a lot about this lately and I think you are right. That is why I am experimenting with honing without tape.

When I first started I didn't feel confident enough in my skills and figured since I didn't really know what I was doing I might cause too much wear on the spine by going way overboard with the amount of strokes and pressure.

Now I do feel confident enough in my skill to avoid that. If it is an ebay or flea market special that needs extensive bevel correction I will still start out with tape until I feel the bevel is close enough to remove the tape and with a minimum amount of strokes correct it for the no tape geometry.

I have a feeling that over the long haul that will be best for the razor and for the shave.

A small reminder here,,, Setting a bevel with tape on an E-baybe, does not necessarily mean the when you go to reset without tape all will be good in the world.... If the spine was honed badly in the past, the tape helps to hide that, and get you a nice even bevel again on the edge... Take that tape off and start honing, and the old spine ruts are going to take the edge bevel back again....

There is quite a bit more to taping the spine then just saving the metal there....

Admittedly I am new to straight razors, but not new to sharpening and honing, so if my subsequent comments are deserving of a verbal smackdown feel free. But there are a couple flaws I can see in the "don't tape" argument.

The idea is that the angle is built in to the razor and you will maintain that angle by removing metal from both, however, the spine is so much thicker and has so much more material that you will not be removing metal at an even rate anyway. So the angle is not going to remain that perfect angle you imagine the razor is built with (I'll get to that in a minute) The effect would be similar, but not as potent as taping the spine.

Another thing that I have seen since starting to hone razors recently, with old razors particularly, is that the wear on the spine is not even. Heavy wear taken from one end or the other which is going to effect the blade shape now. I know the argument is that it was a bad/inexperienced honer and shouldn't have happened, but people aren't perfect. Taping the spine, with electrical tape particularly will keep the spine factory and maintain a better edge shape. The "built in honing guide" that people are talking about, it's being suggested that you grind that down as well? That idea doesn't make sense to me. You want the guide to remain perfect. Also as I pointed out above, what you are trying to acheive by taking the "guide" down as well is not working as ideally as you think, IMO.

Now, the edge geometry. Adding tape to spine will add a tiny amount to the angle. But lets say it's two degrees total, thats being generous. That comes into play in two places.
1. Depending on the steel, it can only handle a certain acuteness to the bevel. After a certain point you sacrafice edge quality. But there is no steel that I know of that would handle a MORE acute angle better than a less acute....therefore if a less acute angle will accomplish the task equally as well, it is the better edge geometry for longevity reasons.
2. The thickness of the blade where the edge starts is less than .5mm from what I have seen. The better option in my eyes would be a higher quality edge, than a sharper angle sacraficing some quality. When we are talking about a bevel that starts at .5mm the difference between 12 degrees and 14 degrees is not large.

So from what I can see the pros/cons of taping the spine weigh pretty heavily to the pro side. If the argument against it is simply a purists point of view more power to you. But taping provides some pretty great gains for very little loss imo. The answer about whether or not to tape would be provided by, IMO, what the steel can handle, not a hard and fast rule. Even then, from what I understand about it so far, I would probably tape it with something very thin, so as not to add significantly to the angle but keep the spine perfect.