Thread: Verhoeven Paper Question

Originally Posted by Bart

abrasion: removal of material by friction with another.
friction: a force applied from rubbing one material against another.

I just said in my last post, "That friction is precisely why you have an abrasive action...". It seems that we are in complete agreement about that, then.

significant: with effective relevance

I get enough relevant friction to remove burrs on plain leather all the time.

That said:
Friction is a force....

Precisely...

From an engineering viewpoint (since you seem so keen on dismissing science as a valid source of truth),...

I like the Engineering viewpoint because I am a real-life Engineer (in two different disciplines). Due to long established habit, I always look at most things like an Engineer would; because I am one... I eagerly await you establishing that my statement "friction is precisely why you have an abrasive action" is in error. This will be very difficult in view of your own definitions above.

... there's abrasion and there's burnishing. The former relies on removal of material. The latter relies on plastic deformation of the surface (plastic flow). Any decent textbook about finishing metal surfaces will provide that information. Polishing is combination of both and the finer the polishing medium the more the principles of burnishing enter the mix.

Burnishing, polishing, and grinding are all an abrasive action. And all are due to friction. If you look at a burnishing tool after using it, you will see particles from the burnished workpiece on the tool, and/or around the workpiece. Those particles are removed from the workpiece, through abrasive action...

There is little doubt in my mind that a clean leather strop relies heavily on burnishing.

You make my very point. Burnishing is an abrasive action. REF: Vibratory tumbling machine vessel for burnishing obviously, as one simple example, uses abrasives.

Verhoeven found no significant abrasion in clean leather (but of course that makes him a moron according to you, doesn't it), hence that leaves me with burnishing. Burnishing=plastic deformation=(re)aligning the tip of the edge instead of abrading it.

I am amazed that you would call Verhoeven a moron... Verhoeven is a researcher. I am simply saying that Butz has qualifications in practical application that Verhoeven himself acknowledges. This is why Verhoeven selected/used a Butz strop. If myself, Butz, and others can remove a burr with a plain strop, then the action is noticeably significant. If it wasn't, we wouldn't be doing it.

I won't deny that you can knock a small fold-over bur off the edge of your tools. Or maybe the strop just grabs the bur and aligns it in the right direction where it actually becomes the tip of the edge. Who's to tell? But on a razor there is no fold-over bur to break off. There is just the edge, and after carefully considering all the variables I say a clean leather strop (re)aligns the edge, with the aid of friction (which is no synonym for abrasion, as you incorrectly suggested).

Rest assured, the burrs are removed by abrasive action. Strop or hone. It is abrasive action due to friction. Without friction there is no abrasion. With friction, you will have abrasion. They go hand-in-hand as I previously state.

Of course, Verhoeven's paper has only general application to straight razors. I can however state that his sharpening efforts and results regarding removing a burr on plain leather: Are simply wrong. Butz does it. I do it. Many woodcarvers do it. So can anyone else who uses small burrs.

Once you do it yourself you'll see the error in Verhoeven's report. It's easier to do with a German chipcarving tool than a knife, but either will work. The real secret is to make the smallest burr possible.