Thread: Why tape the spine?

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

I am glad that Dave posted that taping spines is stupid and there is no reason to do it. Perhaps now Tim Zowada may learn the error of his honing technique.

Tim Zowada is a knifemaker/razormaker who I would guess uses tape on the spines of his new razors to avoid obvious spine wear. This isn't so different from knifemakers who don't sharpen their damascus knives after they've etched the damascus to bring out the pattern. They don't want an obvious bevel to distract from the pretty look of the knife, doesn't matter if it's dull as butter knife or not. I'm not saying that Tim's knives and razors are dull - just saying that he has obvious reasons for using tape. Why us though?

I can see three reasons for taping the spine...

1. We want to keep the wear on a vintage razor to a minimum.

2. We want to keep a new pretty razor pretty.

3. We're lazy and don't want to spend the time to hone it the correct way.

Just to clarify what I meant as taping being stupid...I mean I feel it does nothing for me, makes no sense to me, and I'm sticking to what I know.

I also think that someone could easily get a taped spine razor to work wonders - no doubt about it - most any variable can be manipulated in the right hands but again I wonder why bother?

Actually Tim starts out with one layer and than finishes with three to form a double bevel which he considers a superior edge.

My personal reason is that with 150 or so razors I decided that rather than try and remember which I honed with tape and which I honed without I might as well hone them all the same way.

This was after starting a poll/thread when I first came around titled "Do you tape the spine". A lot of heat in that thread. Here it is if you want to have a look. Anyhow, I'm glad someone has learned to do it right. How many razors have you honed ?

I can't tell the difference between a razor I taped and one I haven't. When I'm honing however....so much less steel needs to be removed with the razor taped. So much less wear on my Nanis....

But I suppose that comports with the "lazy" theory. However, its only lazy if honing without tape is the correct way. I believe that the closest we can come to "the right way" is the way the custom razor smith designed his razors to be honed.

TZ clearly designs his to be honed with tape. Bill Ellis apparently does too. Not sure what RW recommends if any. Etc, etc.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

I absolutely positively will bet ya a beer at the next major Razorcon meet up, that I can hone two twin razors one w/tape and one w/o and you will never ever feel the difference in the shave, just so long as I do the honing and the stropping...

There are just way to many variables involved to make a blanket statement one way or the other...

+1. I can get great honing results with or without tape. Right now, every razor in my rotation (7) gives an easy, smooth shave, having been honed with a single layer of tape. I strop without tape just fine. I do use a hanging strop which has a little slack if compared to a paddle strop -- perhaps that makes a difference when stropping the edge of a razor honed with tape? I.e. the slight slack/give in the hanging strop ensures contact with the edge.

Originally Posted by DaveMartell

I can see three reasons for taping the spine...

1. We want to keep the wear on a vintage razor to a minimum.

2. We want to keep a new pretty razor pretty.

3. We're lazy and don't want to spend the time to hone it the correct way.

I'm not sure I understand your third point. Surely it's more hassle to put some tape on the spine before honing any blade than to just take a naked spine straight to the hone? And are you suggesting that honing it the 'correct way'* (by which I guess you mean without tape) would take longer? "Don't want to spend the time..."

IME honing with or without tape takes just as long. Unless you're trying to achieve a double bevel in which case the whole process (extra layers, establishing the primary bevel, then a second one) would take longer, I imagine, than honing without the tape. So in what way could it be considered lazy?

I can't speak for others here, but a third reason for honing with tape for me is I prefer the feedback I get off my hones when the spine is taped. I can't explain exactly why that is... almost as if the extra resistance/friction tells me how each pass feels. If any given pass is less than perfect (in terms of contact with a narrower hone for example), the difference in feedback becomes extremely obvious. But I concur that's a very subjective reason, but a valid one nonetheless.

Another thought -- perhaps with the tape you had not properly re-established the bevel which had been well set without the tape? And that might also explain why it was easy to get the edge back in shape when you took the tape off and honed again -- the bevel was mostly still set from previous honing without tape? Just a thought.

*Slightly OT, but it's worth noting that the notion of one 'correct way' to hone is, well.... maybe take a look at some of the videos of Mastro Livi honing and it kind of blows that concept out of the water!

Originally Posted by Leighton

I believe that the closest we can come to "the right way" is the way the custom razor smith designed his razors to be honed.

So true! Here's a picture of my custom Livi and the steel cuff he created for it to be used when honing. Given how strongly Dave feels about taping and honing, my guess is this is just going to p1ss him off royally!

Originally Posted by DaveMartell

Just to clarify what I meant as taping being stupid...I mean I feel it does nothing for me, makes no sense to me, and I'm sticking to what I know.

I also think that someone could easily get a taped spine razor to work wonders - no doubt about it - most any variable can be manipulated in the right hands but again I wonder why bother?

Dave, IME you are a nice guy and you won't remember but you helped me out with the decision between Shapton Pro or glass during the KF group buy last year. I've also bought some Hand American products from your store.

No doubt you're a knowledgeable man and I appreciate your clarification. Some honing techniques work well for some and not for others. Sorry I got up on my hind legs in responding to your saying taping was stupid. I could have responded without the sarcasm but it was late and young children and old men get cranky when they are tired. Smooth shaving and happy honing to you.

OK I thought about this somewhat since my last post while I honed and test shaved 5 razors this morning.... (with tape BTW)

I propose another theory to your enlightened statement that honing with Tape is 1. Stupid 2. Lazy 3. not correct...
We of course take no offense to this as I am sure you meant that this was your experience and no reflection on others......

But here is another angle to your honing success, I am going to assume that you meant you honed a number of razors which for most people that are learning to hone is anything over 10 razors hopefully you did more than 20....

I propose that your first time through with tape and the lack of success was due more to amateur honing skills, which you then began to perfect by your second time through without tape so that in your mind the tape was the culprit and not your honing skills.... just a thought...
Now I see from Jimmy's last post that you are a knife guy so take no offense here but honing a knife and honing a razor are two totally different skill sets...

I think you should revisit tape 6-8 months from now or 100 razors from now and see if it actually makes no noticeable difference in the edge ....
Most of us can hone with or without...

Jimmy, no problem at all, no offense taken. I too would like to apologize to all if I swayed in the direction of being argumentative, it's not my intention.

Now for the next thing, I should probably explain a little about where I come from in my sharpening ideas so that maybe I can be better understood in what I'm getting to here with this subject...

While my straight razor knowledge is minimum (at best) my overall sharpenng knowledge and experience on many types of tools is pretty extensive to include Japanese hair shears which are very similar to straight razors in many ways. One thing that I've learned in my time sharpening is that each and every type of tool can be unique unto itself and may need special considerations to sharpen (or hone) correctly. Certainly straight razors are one of these types of tools, you just can't assume a straight is a knife and go to it, you'll be sorry...and I'm sure we can all agree to this.

I've seen and heard countless discussions on new techniques and methods used to sharpen tools and in most cases they come up limiting or simply fundementally flawed. I've found that people like shortcuts and safe routes and will go to great lengths (which is the complete opposite of what they're trying to do) to make things easy.

In the case of taping spines I see that doing this allows for less time to be taking during honing process (since less metal has to be removed) and certainly with an increased edge angle the durability (or wear resistance) of the edge will be increased making for a longer lasting edge that doesn't need as much honing which of course translates into less work which makes us happy...even if we're not conciously aware of the fact. Anyway, I'm getting a bit sidetracked and off point here.

So back on track....basically my point in all this is "why"?

If straight razor can make it through time and use for 100-200 yrs of honing and stropping without tape on the spine then "why" do we feel that it's now necessary?

"Why" bother to create an angle at "X" degrees (from honing on your stones) but need to strop at "Y" degree angle?

And again, I understand the idea of taping for beautification purposes or for saving vintage steel but "why" for the rest?

Originally Posted by gssixgun

You need to clarify on this, one layer of tape.... Does not effect the angle enough to worry about...

Double bevels multiple layers etc:etc: do change things somewhat...

Here are some things that 1 layer of tape does accomplish....
the positives:

No spine wear
1/2 or less of the wear to your hone
1/2 or less swarf on the hone so more longevity from your hone since you have to lap it less...
Automatically increasing what RandyDance likes to call "torque" to the edge..
Easier action on the hone since the tape slides much easier then the steel spine does....
Smaller more even bevel since the tape will negate a lot of spine problems...


Now the negatives:

You don't get the natural spine wear (keep in mind when you first start honing it is quite a bit)
You can feel the difference.... (I seriously doubt this in a blind test)

Heck I don't know other than the spine wear they are pretty much opinions...


This is of course all, JMHO.... take it for what it is worth

Refer to the first few pages of your thread those are just some of the reasons other people had more....