Thread: Life on The Edge, What Is The Same, What Is Different

Originally Posted by kevint

The point of the quote I believe is they were not really interested in changing tools as what they had been using seemed to be working fine.

Which is not too far off base from what the Kingfish is encountering here.

I cannot put my finger on why the tech side interest me. I guess because I need some distraction from all the boring uninteresting stuff going on around me. Neither do I get a kick out of helpng newbies. They can buy a rock and learn to sharpen the same as I did right? one edge at a time.

newbs worry too much (imho) about obtaining the ultimate and best. when 1. there is not one. and 2. if it were its ultimate properties would be lost in their lack of experience.

One reason I started was to explore that ultimate edge. everything that is really sharp is said to be razor sharp. I wanted to know what that really meant. Just as sharpening razors has made me better, more focused on sharpening my handtools. I think for those who are just shavers, finding something more to sharpen than razors.

many have commented that razors are different from other steel edged tools. I have asked for their thoughts as the the whats and why but never got an answer. My view is; it is not really all that different.

Kevin,
I stand in total agreement with your arguement about other edge tools getting the same level of honing that you would find on a razor. I would bet that we could turn a few heads getting a shave with a low angle block plane.
I don't think that many woodworkers get to understand razor sharp until they play with razors or have methods which are very similar. For example, i would not freehand hone a blade as Whiskers explained at a 90 angle. Some woodworkers do, and their woodworking skills could be superlative, but if they had better edges, they could get the job done easier when planing figured wood where end grain(whiskers) pops up and they are getting tear out badly irritating the wood. I hone free hand much of the time with iron skewed very close to how many slant the razor. If I was doing a smoothing plane, it would be a rolling stroke as I would want an ever so slight smile in the blade.
So both of us take our tools to that level, but not all woodworkers do. The ones that do are working with hand tools in highly figured woods, and out of frustration of not getting the most out of very expensive materials begin to look for better edge and better planes and better technique and buy new hone and find the SRP and find there are other madmen out there....sometimes finding way more than they thought they would in the company of some awesome craftsmen.
Mike

Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

i don't have that book. i wanted understand concept of it. what are you trying to say in simple words if you can please .

Bud,
All we are doing is to see if sharp in 2009 is the same as it was in 1995 when there was not as many synthetic stones out. You are a naural stone user and collector and I am sure you have awsome sharpening techniques. I did see your video and want to thank you for that. You really should get the book to read the articles in context to see the way I relate sharpening by Lee's standards in 1995 compared to ours of today.
You can pm me anytime if this does not help and you remain curious.
Mike

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Not to belabor the point but the tech side has a certain amount of interest for me too. OTOH, I am way behind the curve in that area but it seems that IME theory isn''t a prerequisite for honing razors successfully. Still interesting though.

With my limited knowledge of sharpening anything other than pocket knives and straight razors I would think that the difference is the thickness of the bevel. Razors are a heck of a lot thinner and finer than most other tools needing sharpening. Maybe that is too simple to be correct ?

That really is the only difference if you have the same standards for razor sharp in all your tools. sharpening techniques get a little tricky when an gouge has a smile that looks like this ) and the edge profile looks more like a finger nail. But the edge is the edge and razor sharp is razor sharp.
Mike

Originally Posted by Kingfish

Many woodworkers get by with inferior edges and have no clue what sharp is.

I was eluding to that, yes... in comparison to a shaving razor; for sure.

Originally Posted by Kingfish

As far as the end grain of wood-whiskers low angle block planes skewed to lower effective cutting angle similar to bevel of Straights or DEs and their low cutting angle. That is more than just similar, only the material differs and the design of the tool.
Mike

In theory you may have something there ... but in application the mediums are so different, they are beyond comparison imo. Its almost like comparing a bicycle tire and a tractor tire. Yes can be generally related (made from rubber, steel wire reinforcement, round, etc...) but the comparison is lost on the fine points and even main points, includuing application.

I'm still sticking to my guns about my theory being that the author had little reference, that he basically used anything he could.

Hindsight is always 20-20.

Originally Posted by Bruce

Sharpening needs to be done to suit the edge to the job. I once had to quickly install some deadbolt locks in a few doors where there was no time to get proper modifications in the steel frames for flush mounted strike plates. I mostly drilled out rectangular holes with a series of small holes and chopped the rest of the hole square and true with one of my favorite chisels. I ground the bevel more obtuse than usual for wood, but still honed it to an edge fine enough so I could actually shave the steel. Good tools are a marvelous thing.

I kinda tried somewhat the same approach when I first attempted honing a razor - not a regrind, just a hone, but it was a pretty ham-handed approach to creating a chisel's edge on a razor. And I guess I ended up with a chisel's edge on a razor 'cuz it wasn't worth doodly whoop for shaving. Athough it was a start and sharp as they are now, I wouldn't think of shaving steel with them -- but that old Stanley, tough steel.

But I digress -- never been there before

Off topic but good stuff. Who knows, maybe something will happen. I hone many kinds of razors, and have played with variants of the razor edge for a differnent job, my wirey beard. When i hone wedges, sometimes I will stick a double bevel on the end as many here do to get a tougher edge. Full wedges require higher levels of skill than hollows and alot more elbow grease to set the bevels. So for the average honer of razors that can do a full hollow would no doubt end up with a mess before he finally figures out what to try different to get the same level of sharpness on the wedge as the hollow. Many honers admit their wedges are not as sharp I think alot of that has to do with the amount of extra time as you are moving way more material. So yes off topic but on the topic, what is our standard of sharp? Would better honers in all honesty blame the wedge design if they could not get it as sharp as their own standard? I would love to see how the best of us match up to the standards of 95 regardless of the grind or tool. I know, I could not sharpen as good back then as I do now. Three variables to my story much like many of you for sure:
1. I learned a whole lot since then
2. I have better stones IMHO
3. I found SRP and fell in love with razors and a smooth shave with no irritation on my wild grained highly figured Sicilian Stuble. This is where my journey has gotten interesting, as I am finding(if there was a theory, this might be a starting place) I use to rely on basic honing technique from going from stone to stone removing the scratches and chasing of the wire edge however so slight. I felt there was a point where razors got too sharp for a good shave. I seriously have completly changed that idea. And please, i know there are way better than me here. Also possibly talking about the point of diminishing returns and that is only an academic excercise that I would not subject a group like you.I value all of our time more than that But the face test does not lie. If you are able to get less and less irritation with historically speaking, this multiple pass thing was not done nor recomended in the Art of Barbering up until now. This is empirical proof that our edges are sharper than when for example the Practice and Science of Standard Barbering was written.(my edition is 1967) Just how far anyone wants to take there skills is their own buisness(literally for you honemeisters)But master sharpeners have more options at their fingertips than they had 10 years ago.
There are many idiosynchrosies we all have, our own little voodoo that should not be given up so freely. I personally feel the level of openess is just the right level here unlike anyother place I have been. That is why I really want to explore the equipment side of it and sharpeners with creative and adaptive powers will apply their own brand of voodoo and be able to figure it out for themselves the how part for themselves. Sharpening skills can not be mastered from one book, one forum. To get good, really good: Endless cycles of Basics then practice then experimentation.A lifetime is not enough.
More empirical proof is that I do not have a fin at the end of my edge. Don't need paste, don't need resting the razor, stropping is still helpful but nowhere near as important as it use to be chasing that little fin around. As far as this fin buisness, if you leave your edges like that and it works for you and your clients I am not so arrogant to say mine is any better. There was a time when I would not go anywhere near .3 micron film(God I want that 30000 Shapton). In my first days refining edges to that level gave me a inferior product. Hopping of a Norton 8000, then CrO the strop on leather. But that was a how problem that I had to figure out. Again there is nothing wrong with that edge and if done properly would meet the highest standards anywhere, But with the nano consistancy of abrasive material in the new synthetics, there are new options if you want and have the how.
Mike

Originally Posted by Whiskers

I was eluding to that, yes... in comparison to a shaving razor; for sure.



In theory you may have something there ... but in application the mediums are so different, they are beyond comparison imo. Its almost like comparing a bicycle tire and a tractor tire. Yes can be generally related (made from rubber, steel wire reinforcement, round, etc...) but the comparison is lost on the fine points and even main points, includuing application.

I'm still sticking to my guns about my theory being that the author had little reference, that he basically used anything he could.

Hindsight is always 20-20.

What part of the mediums are holding you back? Protein vs Cellulose? A low angle shearing force is needed to cut them.Plane vs Straight? Ok consider a chisel shaped exactly like a Straight except with a larger bevel angle, I admit cellulose is a hell of a lot harder to cut. But, so are some beards, so their are straights designed with different bevel angles and beefier blades, just like our chisel. If you don't accept the premise of the analogie, if I am wrong on that part, than this excercise is meaningless. So, is that something we need to look at?
Blade is about the same, matter of fact most of my old planes are carbon steel tempered in the same ball park as razor. forces on blade from slightly different materials cause stress. Chipping, dulling happen to both.
Mike

i got this one thank you. i will try to find that book

Originally Posted by Kingfish

Bud,
All we are doing is to see if sharp in 2009 is the same as it was in 1995 when there was not as many synthetic stones out. You are a naural stone user and collector and I am sure you have awsome sharpening techniques. I did see your video and want to thank you for that. You really should get the book to read the articles in context to see the way I relate sharpening by Lee's standards in 1995 compared to ours of today.
You can pm me anytime if this does not help and you remain curious.
Mike

Originally Posted by Kingfish

What part of the mediums are holding you back? Protein vs Cellulose?
Mike

That's as far as I got.

Comparing human hair and wood is directly analogous to comparing apples to oranges.

Compare hair to hair ... wood to wood...

The latter comparison is science.


Being close doesn't cut it.

Ok, that one was bad ...

Actually I was not saying that other steel edges get the same degree of finish.

Sometimes we talk about microbevels, radius bevels, altered angle(taped) bevels, level of finish, et al, so there are different kinds of edges, even amongst razors. As well, there are different techniques to get there.

The details and techniques are variable. There are different kinds of knives, chisels, axes, etc. Any of these may need different degrees of finish, angle and geometry. Splitting axe or hewing. Mortise chisel or paring chisel. Scrub plane or smoothing.

So ultimately if you stand back and take in a holistic, all encompassing view, it all becomes the same: creating planes and lines. The work determines what demands must be met.

With that in mind I do not believe the standards have really changed much.

Originally Posted by kevint

Actually I was not saying that other steel edges get the same degree of finish.

Sometimes we talk about microbevels, radius bevels, altered angle(taped) bevels, level of finish, et al, so there are different kinds of edges, even amongst razors. As well, there are different techniques to get there.

The details and techniques are variable. There are different kinds of knives, chisels, axes, etc. Any of these may need different degrees of finish, angle and geometry. Splitting axe or hewing. Mortise chisel or paring chisel. Scrub plane or smoothing.

So ultimately if you stand back and take in a holistic, all encompassing view, it all becomes the same: creating planes and lines. The work determines what demands must be met.

With that in mind I do not believe the standards have really changed much.

Well said!!