Thread: Scratches on the bevel

I have yet to replace my Rshack miniscope. I reckon that reflects accurately the importance I place on the appearance of the bevel.

Scratching is sharpening, even and consistent abrasion. With the hones that I use, this never stops, each and every one cuts metal from the blade.

The first time I made the connection between flat stone, flat bevel, and consistent strokes on the forum(could not find the post to see what I actually said) It certainly seemed to me that the acceptability factor was way up there, bevel littered with all levels of scratch.

Now it seems to be much more reduced. Sham states we need an edge, not a (shiny) bevel. The bevel though, is what the edge is "made of". As I have always said it should be automatic you do not need to search for it or refine it more specifically than practice, practice. Besides it is likely an academic issue if these to the edge "big" scratches serve to weaken the edge. Academically speaking I think they do

Many-a-time I have found these queer scratches running out to a tiny chip. I am unsure of the origin. Now these kinds of buggaboo (chip or no)have nothing to do with any lack of muscle-memory HHM (human hone machine) They are anomalies crawling out of the hone surface

Originally Posted by kevint

Scratching is sharpening, even and consistent abrasion. With the hones that I use, this never stops, each and every one cuts metal from the blade.

of course scratching is removing metals.
Depends on the grit of the stone scratch will be different size

Now it seems to be much more reduced. Sham states we need an edge, not a (shiny) bevel. The bevel though, is what the edge is "made of".

they both made from same metal right?

"big" scratches serve to weaken the edge. Academically speaking I think they do

[COLOR="Blue"][/Instead of "Big" if you said" Deep" i would be agree with you 100% but in this case 98 %. agreement.COLOR]

Kevin i did use my best understanding and answered how i can. Rest really confused me tough English for me.
i will repeat again. you can get not shiny bevel(with scratches) with excellent edge .it is not hard to do.

Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

i will repeat again. you can get not shiny bevel(with scratches) with excellent edge .it is not hard to do.

I agree with this completely. Many people have successfully shaved off of an 8k norton, which is not a shiny bevel compared to 16k shapton followed up with chrome ox. (looks like a mirror)

However, I have a theory about why it might be much better to have a shiny bevel. This is just a theory of course.

The edge of a razor is so fine, that micro oxidation can and will cause the edge to dull. This is one of the main reasons to strop every day, as this will polish away any microscopic particles of rust.

On a microscopic level, a bevel that is not polished smooth, will have more surface area than one that has been polished to a mirror gloss. More surface area means more steel in contact with air and moisture, and therefore, means more rust and faster dulling.

I have no idea if there difference is significant enough to actually matter to us, but it's something to consider.

Originally Posted by VeeDubb65

I agree with this completely. Many people have successfully shaved off of an 8k norton, which is not a shiny bevel compared to 16k shapton followed up with chrome ox. (looks like a mirror)

However, I have a theory about why it might be much better to have a shiny bevel. This is just a theory of course.

The edge of a razor is so fine, that micro oxidation can and will cause the edge to dull. This is one of the main reasons to strop every day, as this will polish away any microscopic particles of rust.

On a microscopic level, a bevel that is not polished smooth, will have more surface area than one that has been polished to a mirror gloss. More surface area means more steel in contact with air and moisture, and therefore, means more rust and faster dulling.

I have no idea if there difference is significant enough to actually matter to us, but it's something to consider.

Are you the one that has been saying this for a while?


It has really gotten to me, and it makes sense from a theoretical point of view. Heck, even that old article about safety razors and rusting would inherently support your idea.

Nope, this is the first time I can remember suggesting this. I've only had a proper set of hones for a few weeks.

Yes they are both made of the same metal. If the bevel is wild with scratches then so is the edge. But as you say it does not make much difference. I am less concerned with 8k scratches than those that appear to be much larger

However as I look forward to longer edge life I must look for some things that may shorten it.

I did not say deep because there is no way to know how deep a scratch is. Info from Shapton provided by H Stanley on his forum shows that 7micron abrasive leaves 100-200 nanometer deep scratch. I suppose the depth is variable depending several factors. Let's assume this is accurate and applicable to our honing methods; it means very, very little material need to be removed to replace scratches with a finer grade.


I have never been able to personally observe micro oxidation, VeeDub. I have taken the expression "Shiny bevel" to mean scratch-free(or mostly) under magnification, not just shiny.

Sham, I am one of those who try to polish out the scratches on my bevel, and the reason I do it is that I am still learning to test edges by TPT feel. It's not totally locked in for me yet, but when I check the bevel and see that the scratches are getting smoothed out, I have a visual guide that the edge must also be smoothing out. Of course the edge does not EQUAL the bevel, but the bevel extends out to the edge so there is a connection.

I understand that this is not the perfect way to check my edge while honing, but I think of it as one step on my path to learning how to do it right. As far as I can tell, the only negative is that it maybe removes more steel? Or maybe not? To be honest, I'm not sure what's WRONG with polishing out the scratches, other than it's not really necessary, but I get that it's not recommended.

Originally Posted by VeeDubb65

On a microscopic level, a bevel that is not polished smooth, will have more surface area than one that has been polished to a mirror gloss. More surface area means more steel in contact with air and moisture, and therefore, means more rust and faster dulling.

I agree 100% with this

Originally Posted by JimR

Sham, I am one of those who try to polish out the scratches on my bevel, and the reason I do it is that I am still learning to test edges by TPT feel. It's not totally locked in for me yet, but when I check the bevel and see that the scratches are getting smoothed out, I have a visual guide that the edge must also be smoothing out. Of course the edge does not EQUAL the bevel, but the bevel extends out to the edge so there is a connection.

I understand that this is not the perfect way to check my edge while honing, but I think of it as one step on my path to learning how to do it right. As far as I can tell, the only negative is that it maybe removes more steel? Or maybe not? To be honest, I'm not sure what's WRONG with polishing out the scratches, other than it's not really necessary, but I get that it's not recommended.

JimR if i am not mistaken you are in Japan? ( i could be wrong?)
So far i have used 7 Japan hones and none leaves scratches . if you check bevel on 100x you will see only rain dots .
Now why people against to take all scratches out because of removing unnecessary metal.
by trying to take all scratches out you will end up loosing a lot blades life. As you know bevel has nothing to do with our face no contact at all . Only edge touches to hair and cuts.
After reading your above post i understand your point about scratches. They kinda guide you . You check them as less you see them you think you are getting better edge. this will happen if you are using final touch

honing stone more then you suppose to. Example i have seen people makes 100 laps on nakayama and gets excellent edge .In my understanding this is wrong.

Same applies to EScher hones. They are final touch hones i would never do more then 20 laps ether of them .
What happen you use Nakayama and trying to get rid of scratches while doing this process you are making 100-150 laps on nakayama and you get excellent edge( this is just guessing ok) . You think you did great job.(example again ok)
Actually you (anyone else)should't worry about scratches and not make so many laps on Nakayama to get excellent edge. You can get that edge making only 20 laps if you move to Nakyama right time.
I hope i am clear.
Please JIMR there is nothing personal . i say what i think is right and beneficiary to all of us.

Of course it's not personal Sham! I'm here to learn like anyone!

When I talk about scratch elimination, I'm not talking about the final polish, I'm talking about every step of the way. When I come off the 1K (Diamond Plate), I go to a 2K (Naniwa Super Stone) and smooth out the 1K scratches as much as I can. Then up to the 4K (King Stone) and smooth the 2K scratches. Then up to 8K (Naniwa Super Stone). When I come off of the 8K, there are hardly any visible scratches. Then, whatever finisher I use, I get a mirror shine on the bevel.

Sham, I'm not sure what you are referring to as the bevel--in my understanding from the wiki, the bevel is the visible part of the edge, the linear plane that extends on each side of the razor. The edge is the point where the two bevels meet, so the scratches on the bevel extend out to the edge. They are directly related, they are in fact the same thing...if you are honing right, then a smooth bevel actually should mean a smooth edge...