Thread: Microbevels with the Shapton 30000

Originally Posted by Howard

I use Shap 30k stones all the time to hone razors. Just got a call today from a guy who sent me a Japanese razor that I dialed in and finished on a 30k and he says it's the best shave he's ever gotten. He even said he didn't need his doctor wife standing by to stop the bleeding he'd gotten before. I'm not crazy about the Japanese razors and I did send the guy a Wade & Butcher which he said does great on his face. They're both finished to 30k. Now on to microbevels. I'm not crazy about microbevels. Awhile back Tim Zowada posted micropix of microbeveled razors and they were astoundingly sharp . . . for awhile. A number of folks reported that although very sharp at first, the edge didn't last very long. I will have to try it though as I'm always looking for . . . the perfect edge. Thanks for the post!

Thanks howard for your participation. Your experience is most welcome and will add depth to our little project. Time and personal preference always play into how one likes their blades finished. Hopefully we can learn and collectively get a better idea about sharpening in general.
Mike

Originally Posted by northpaw

Thanks for the confirmation about the 12k. Best little brother ever, huh? Especially remembering enough to ask about specifics after an off-hand conversation I had with him. Then again, the conversation occurred while I was shaving him, so maybe that had something to do with his retention of the relevant facts!


Back on point: are there theories as to why a microbevel might not last as long, or was that just what some folks have observed?

Actually Adam, there is much evidence that microbevels make edges last longer and much easier to maintain, but who knows with razors? That is what makes this so fun. As Howard pointed out that some claim Tim's razors lose something along the way but that is not in a theorie realm, more or less a observation. Also, keep in mind Tim does a fair amount of development after the fact so it is different than just comming off the hone like we are doing.
As Lynn told me earlier, you can't expect these to be "Supermen" of edges. Remember what is new to us may not be to everyone else. We should temper our excitement with realism and not set expectations so high on what we are doing which by the way is ONLY an alternative to the finishing of good bevel that many learned how to do here at SRP.
Finishing will always be a personal choice, some like diamomd paste others CrO other many combinations of those. At best, this method may appeal to some others not. Some will need to tame it down with pastes etc. But we will leave that for later.
Personally, I really like them and so far are working for me. As mentioned they are simple to do and repeatable. Simple works for me right now
Mike

Day 2:

So I've used the razor twice that I put the 30k microbevel on. I stropped before today's shave, and the shave was pretty much the same as yesterday's. The razor is VERY sharp. I still think I prefer the edges I get finish with a Nakayama (no micro-bevel), but I will still try this razor until the shave quality diminishes. It removes hair very easily and the shave is quite good. The difference between this edge and the edge off of my Nakayama is hardly discernable, so this method definitely produces a nice edge with the one razor I've used it on. The bonus with this method is that it's very quick. I bet you could even get away with 5 strokes on the 30k to produce the microbevel since you're only honing away a small portion of the bevel. IIRC Lynn recommends 5 laps on the 30k to start out with, so I think that would be enough on a micro-bevel. I'm just speculating, so it's totally up for debate. The razor I used is a Spike Union Cutlery btw.

So I think the real question everyone is wondering about is edge longevity. Well, that we will have to wait and find out for! Will report back.

The difference between this edge and the edge off of my Nakayama is hardly discernable

mind sending me these stones for verification purposes?

Seriously, I am eager to participate in this micro experiment, but I'm waiting for a razor or two that needs a bevel reset, I only have honemeister Max's bevels laying around at the moment and one of my own that is perfect. Don't fizz with lizz, dizz?

2nd shave:

Pretty much what Dave said above: I stropped before this one, and the edge was still raring to go and gave a great shave. Will continue to report.

Day 2
I am using another Challenge Razor from the same start time as Dave and Adam to keep on the same page. I looked at edge after each shave 100x mag, to look for microchipping or edge deformation. Shaves and looks pretty much the same as day 0. Stropping only after shave (2 or 3 passes) on mine ever so lightly because I like to and to dry off edge.
The hardest part of this will be look at my Sheffield Steel and not use them. They watch me as I shave and I hear them yellling "pick me, pick me)
Also this is more of a study than an experiment for the geeks who are interested. Just having fun.
Mike

Alright, I finally did it! I ended up doing up 2 razors this way.

I started off with the Bismark, but I ended up trying something different, that didn't really adhere to the requirements of this test, but up to 16K, then 30K with tape - 15 strokes. I also did up a Torrey properly, and then the MB at 30K with tape - also 15 strokes.

The Bismark was much happier than it has been the past few weeks. I will admit that because I didn't follow the experiment with it, I did diamond .25 on felt and CrO2 6x each before the shave. It was a good shave - not the best I'd had from that razor, but certainly in the top 5.

The Torrey, was quite nice, indeed! No stropping, and it went wtg and atg with no problems. My face is quite smooth, as it should be. I think 15 strokes may have been too much for the Torrey, but since there was some warpage and uneveness to the spine, I wanted to make sure I got all the areas of the blade.

The comparison: While I have shaved off the 30K without the micro bevel and now with the micro bevel, I honestly didn't really feel much difference in the shave results - the BBS I've been getting has been quite consistent since joining the SRP. The feel of the razor on the face was ever so slightly improved with the micro bevel. For edge longevity, that test has just begun.

I noticed that I needed to hold the Torrey at a slightly higher angle than usual, since I don't normally use tape, but that was not a big issue and did not interfere with the shave.

Originally Posted by northpaw

Back on point: are there theories as to why a microbevel might not last as long, or was that just what some folks have observed?

In absolute terms, a secondary bevel is stronger, as already mentioned by Kevint. The very edge caries a more obtuse bevel angle, which is stonger. There's no escaping that.
BUT... The edge is most likely also keener. Why, you might wonder? If you use a very fine hone such as the 30K Shapton, to finish a single bevel, the edge will most likely not reach the sharpness limit of the hone. Two principles that deny the hone's full potential:
1. the bevel is so wide that the hone has not enough abrasive power to remove the layer of steel that needs to go in order to reach the limit that the hone can offer. You could try to compensate for this by doing many, many laps. Not sure you'd ever get there. It depends on the hone.
2. There can be suction between the bevel flat and the hone's surface. As a result, the very thin part of the outer edge can start to flutter. This is a hypothesis, based upon an observation I have made time and time again when looking at magnified edges (40x): the bevel looks completely polished, but the very edge has a small region of a less polished nature, that wasn't there when the edge was less sharp. Some might suspect overhoning, and you can call it what you want, but honing on a small secondary bevel has never led me to make such an observation.

So far what happens at a single bevel. On a narrow secondary bevel:
1. On such a narrow strip, the hone can work its full potential. As already said, the edge is made buy nothing else than that hone. You can really reach the hone's physical limit.
2. No suction, no fluttering of the very edge. As said, on a narrow (micro)bevel, I have never noticed the above occurrence that seems to hold back the very edge from further development.

Because of those differences, the secondary bevelled edge is most likely the sharpest you can ever get off the hone used to cut the bevel. How keener the edge, how more fragile it is and prone to quickly loose performance. Since you guys are talking about a Shapton 30K (which I do not own) I can only imagine that you are talking about the sharpest edges around. I don't think you can expect those to last forever and a day. Furthermore, any woodworker will confirm that an initially deteriorating ultra-sharp edge falls back further than a somewhat less sharp edge that holds up. For that reason in certain woodworking appliances, edges are sometimes pre-dulled in a controlled manner. I don't know if any of this applies to shaving whiskers.

Whenever I need to test a hone, cutting a secondary bevel with it, is always one of my test procedures. It tells a lot about how keen an edge that hone can deliver and how skin friendly that edge is. The more tape you use, the quicker the secondary bevel will hit the hone's keenness limit. Yet I like to use as little tape as possible, because I don't like edges with a really obtuse angle.

Great thread. Sorry I have no 30K to add more data.

Best regards,
Bart.

Originally Posted by Bart

In absolute terms, a secondary bevel is stronger, as already mentioned by Kevint. The very edge caries a more obtuse bevel angle, which is stonger. There's no escaping that.
BUT... The edge is most likely also keener. Why, you might wonder? If you use a very fine hone such as the 30K Shapton, to finish a single bevel, the edge will most likely not reach the sharpness limit of the hone. Two principles that deny the hone's full potential:
1. the bevel is so wide that the hone has not enough abrasive power to remove the layer of steel that needs to go in order to reach the limit that the hone can offer. You could try to compensate for this by doing many, many laps. Not sure you'd ever get there. It depends on the hone.
2. There can be suction between the bevel flat and the hone's surface. As a result, the very thin part of the outer edge can start to flutter. This is a hypothesis, based upon an observation I have made time and time again when looking at magnified edges (40x): the bevel looks completely polished, but the very edge has a small region of a less polished nature, that wasn't there when the edge was less sharp. Some might suspect overhoning, and you can call it what you want, but honing on a small secondary bevel has never led me to make such an observation.

So far what happens at a single bevel. On a narrow secondary bevel:
1. On such a narrow strip, the hone can work its full potential. As already said, the edge is made buy nothing else than that hone. You can really reach the hone's physical limit.
2. No suction, no fluttering of the very edge. As said, on a narrow (micro)bevel, I have never noticed the above occurrence that seems to hold back the very edge from further development.

Because of those differences, the secondary bevelled edge is most likely the sharpest you can ever get off the hone used to cut the bevel. How keener the edge, how more fragile it is and prone to quickly loose performance. Since you guys are talking about a Shapton 30K (which I do not own) I can only imagine that you are talking about the sharpest edges around. I don't think you can expect those to last forever and a day. Furthermore, any woodworker will confirm that an initially deteriorating ultra-sharp edge falls back further than a somewhat less sharp edge that holds up. For that reason in certain woodworking appliances, edges are sometimes pre-dulled in a controlled manner. I don't know if any of this applies to shaving whiskers.

Whenever I need to test a hone, cutting a secondary bevel with it, is always one of my test procedures. It tells a lot about how keen an edge that hone can deliver and how skin friendly that edge is. The more tape you use, the quicker the secondary bevel will hit the hone's keenness limit. Yet I like to use as little tape as possible, because I don't like edges with a really obtuse angle.

Great thread. Sorry I have no 30K to add more data.

Best regards,
Bart.

Bart,
That was very good insight and made me understand how the secondary bevel reaches the poential of the hone. I wish you could join the group. On the falling back of the edge in woodworking, that does happen all too quickly. Moreover, the sharper it is to begin with the sharper the "working" edge is after it has fallen back. Also the duller and less defined the edge is to start the more force is required when working an edge subjecting it to chipping faster. That is why I am going to call this a study Vs Experiment, if that is OK with the participants because there are too many variables to wrap my head around.
It will be a learning experience for sure. Thanks again for the insight and making it so clear as to why the hone is doing what it is doing. Bart,that by far was the best explanation I have ever heard in regards to this phenomena and stokes our understanding of honing .
Mike

Originally Posted by Bart

I don't think you can expect those to last forever and a day. Furthermore, any woodworker will confirm that an initially deteriorating ultra-sharp edge falls back further than a somewhat less sharp edge that holds up. For that reason in certain woodworking appliances, edges are sometimes pre-dulled in a controlled manner. I don't know if any of this applies to shaving whiskers.

Thanks for the excellent post Bart. I have experienced the flutter too.

Your mention of purposely dulling a sharp edge brings to mind the practice of some DE shavers of 'corking' Feather blades to take a bit of the edge off. (no pun intended)

Having noticed that they were frequently smoother on the second shave the idea of running them lightly over a piece of cork is practiced by some guys.