Thread: Microbevels with the Shapton 30000

Originally Posted by Pete_S

I've heard some professionals use them, Zowanda in particular, as Jimmy said-- theres been some talk about them on SMF. I might try one out, as Bassguy said above, a double bevel is supposed to give the most durable edge on a Chef's knife.

Maybe a hanging pasted strop would be good for touch up on a razor honed like this, they're supposed to round the edge, so they might keep a microbeveled edge in good shape. I'm sure it would round the corners of the bevel a bit, bit I don't think that would matter a whole lot.

Zowanda's method is a few notches more complicated. He starts the double bevel with a steeper angle as he uses more tape the begins the bevel with a Chinese 12K, then to Echer or Shapton 30k. Then a paste and strop sequence. I was just looking for the quickest, simple and repeatable so touch ups only involve returning to the 30k. The paste might smooth out if the edge looks too intimidating. (by accident I actually cut off micro thin layer of my finger print on my thumb, a new kind of TPT) I have been enjoying the simplicity of it and it works for my skin beard type. It is a starting point at least.
Mike

Originally Posted by JimR

After reading this thread, I tried almost exactly that last night. I had a Case Red Imp Wedge that I was having trouble getting right where I wanted it. Figured I would have to rehone it anyway, so why not try?

I put on a single layer of tape, I took it to my nakayama using a fairly heavy slurry, did 20 laps than diluted, 10 laps and diluted, 10 more and finished on just water (kind of like a coti progression). I shaved without stropping. The shave was very interesting--sharp as all get out, but I don't know how smooth it was; I was extremely irritated afterward, but my face has been very strange these past few days, flaring up at everything I put on it. Might be a good idea to put the test shaves aside for the time being.

Hi Jim,
I started all my micros on razors that did not have issues. I don't believe these ultra fine polishing stones can fix problem razors that you can't "get right". Your razor should be sitting on a perfect bevel finished around 12000 -16000 primary bevel then the one layer and minimal laps on the 30K just tightens up your previous work another degree. I am glad you tried it, but I don't want to give impression that this is going to fix a razor that is "not right". That won't happen.
Everything you normaly do to get an edge then this is just the finishing touch. Thats all.
Mike

I don't understand guys. Why bother with a microbevel on a razor that already has such a small bevel. I can't see durability , keeness or smoothness issues in a good quality blade. Maybe of benefit in something worn ?

Mike,
I appreciate your comments, but I wasn't under the impression that it would.

The "not right" with my razor was not a problem with the bevel, it simply wasn't exactly where I wanted it.

I'm investigating, asking "what happens if". So I asked, what happens if I take this edge with whichI am not entirely satisfief, and use my nakayama to put a microbevel on it? It got keener, but not necessarily smoother.

So I feel it was a good experience, a lesson that I have begun learning.

Originally Posted by onimaru55

I don't understand guys. Why bother with a microbevel on a razor that already has such a small bevel. I can't see durability , keeness or smoothness issues in a good quality blade. Maybe of benefit in something worn ?

A micro bevel is actually a more obtuse angle. With straights, the angles of the edge are predetermined by the thicknes of the spine and the width of the blade. (A less-wide blade 5/8 will need a thinner spine than a 7/8 to keep the ratio in check - but that is a little too deep in this case.)

Chisels and plane blades tend to add that extra bevel to help reinforce the "edge of the edge" since it is prone to such abuse. I think Mike's intentions are to see three things:
1. to see the effectiveness of a microbevel in terms of the longevity of the edge (will it last longer? - since it is more obtuse, it should)
2. to see the effect, if any, on the shave.
3. to have honing fun!

Mike can chime in at any time.....

maybe I am going slightly off topic: A single layer of tape as we've seen in the trig threads is not a substantial change; maybe not enough to give any advantage more than speed of finishing; as it's probably not fortifying enough to register in our perception.

But if you later forget the edge was taped and decide a few quick touch up strokes are needed then doing more and more and more on the finish stone the edge may noticeably deteriorate. A sure case of more is less

Originally Posted by JimR

Mike,
I appreciate your comments, but I wasn't under the impression that it would.

The "not right" with my razor was not a problem with the bevel, it simply wasn't exactly where I wanted it.

I'm investigating, asking "what happens if". So I asked, what happens if I take this edge with whichI am not entirely satisfief, and use my nakayama to put a microbevel on it? It got keener, but not necessarily smoother.

So I feel it was a good experience, a lesson that I have begun learning.

I hear you Jim,
I just want to keep the experiment on topic.
We have a few members who are participating and getting feedback and we are collectively enjoying our study and as Lynn tells us all "Having Fun. Smoothness comes up as an issue but not ripping the face off but adjusting to a sharper blade? Maybe, maybe not. The next step might be that some with finer skin would have to use a little CrO paste to smooth out. Please take no offense Jim, I just want to isolate the process first then we can go from there.
Respectfully,
Michael

Originally Posted by jendeindustries

A micro bevel is actually a more obtuse angle. With straights, the angles of the edge are predetermined by the thicknes of the spine and the width of the blade. (A less-wide blade 5/8 will need a thinner spine than a 7/8 to keep the ratio in check - but that is a little too deep in this case.)

Chisels and plane blades tend to add that extra bevel to help reinforce the "edge of the edge" since it is prone to such abuse. I think Mike's intentions are to see two things:
1. to see the effectiveness of a microbevel in terms of the longevity of the edge (will it last longer? - since it is more obtuse, it should)
2. to see the effect, if any, on the shave.
3. to have honing fun!

Mike can chime in at any time.....

BINGO!!!!!!!!!

Originally Posted by kevint

maybe I am going slightly off topic: A single layer of tape as we've seen in the trig threads is not a substantial change; maybe not enough to give any advantage more than speed of finishing; as it's probably not fortifying enough to register in our perception.

But if you later forget the edge was taped and decide a few quick touch up strokes are needed then doing more and more and more on the finish stone the edge may noticeably deteriorate. A sure case of more is less

I think we are talking semantics here, overall, but in the search for the ever better shave there is no end!

Taping of the spine is essentially what this experiment is dong, except for taping the entire way, only the edge of the edge on the last step will be produced. Taping has other reasons, usually - one is to avoid spine wear, not to adjust the angle of the bevel, per se; and the other is because of spine wear, the spine thickness to blade width ratio has been altered to the point where the edge is too weak without tape.

On another the knife forums, there is a guy who likes to do just what Mike is doing, but on his kitchen knives. He purposely stays right behind the edge, thinning out the bevel, if you will, and then on that last stone, he raises the angle so that the two sides meet in the middle. Here's a magnified pic link to a 3, 5, and 7 degree bevel (7 being the edge angle, so it's really 14 degrees in total on the knife when you flip it over) made by a Shapton 8K glass (white) stone.

It goes along the lines of avoiding over honing or burr forming, since the stone will leave scratches in the metal that could be too deep right at the tip. By doing this method, you avoid making the edge too fragile or too thin.

I was also thinking that as long as the single layer of tape changes the angle enough to actually produce a second bevel (which the guys with magnification are saying), it's also a way to ensure that the final edge is "pure 30k". Hope that makes sense.

I have to say, the shave I got was closer than I realized. I didn't know there were degrees of BBS! Maybe the additional sharpness was the reason the edge didn't feel particularly smooth, but I'm now at approx. hour 17 after that shave I reported y'day, and I can't see or feel any stubble to shave before I go to work today. This is an unusually lengthy time for me - especially since I wasn't trying hard to get BBS and didn't suffer much irritation to speak of. I've got a darker beard and relatively pale skin, so I've always felt I had to shave every day to look professional. Now I'm not sure.