Thread: Microbevels with the Shapton 30000

Originally Posted by jendeindustries

I think we are talking semantics here, overall, but in the search for the ever better shave there is no end!

Taping of the spine is essentially what this experiment is dong, except for taping the entire way, only the edge of the edge on the last step will be produced. Taping has other reasons, usually - one is to avoid spine wear, not to adjust the angle of the bevel, per se; and the other is because of spine wear, the spine thickness to blade width ratio has been altered to the point where the edge is too weak without tape.

On another the knife forums, there is a guy who likes to do just what Mike is doing, but on his kitchen knives. He purposely stays right behind the edge, thinning out the bevel, if you will, and then on that last stone, he raises the angle so that the two sides meet in the middle. Here's a magnified pic link to a 3, 5, and 7 degree bevel (7 being the edge angle, so it's really 14 degrees in total on the knife when you flip it over) made by a Shapton 8K glass (white) stone.

It goes along the lines of avoiding over honing or burr forming, since the stone will leave scratches in the metal that could be too deep right at the tip. By doing this method, you avoid making the edge too fragile or too thin.

I am unaware that Mike's testing requires staying behind the edge as you describe the knife guy doing, as you say he is.

that is not what he said
In this case however,(missing from your overview) the only real advantage is reducing the number of strokes to establish the finish edge.

Originally Posted by kevint

I am unaware that Mike's testing requires staying behind the edge as you describe the knife guy doing, as you say he is.

that is not what he said
In this case however,(missing from your overview) the only real advantage is reducing the number of strokes to establish the finish edge.

Kevin,
Beg, borrow or steal a Shapton or similar and work with us and stop bogging the experiment with parsing words. We are going to need a lawyer for a fun experiment if we continue like this. PLEASE>
Tom, Your Bismark is calling.
Mike

Originally Posted by Kingfish

Kevin,
Beg, borrow or steal a Shapton or similar and work with us and stop bogging the experiment with parsing words. We are going to need a lawyer for a fun experiment if we continue like this. PLEASE>
Tom, Your Bismark is calling.
Mike

Maybe it is none of my business and Kevin can speak for himself but IME Kevin isn't trying to 'bog down' your thread.It is just that he is as precise in his posts as I imagine he must be in his honing.

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Maybe it is none of my business and Kevin can speak for himself but IME Kevin isn't trying to 'bog down' your thread.It is just that he is as precise in his posts as I imagine he must be in his honing.

With all respect Jimmy,








M

Mike, I do admit that Tom's lecture on the needs and purpose of spine taping was a touch insulting. I should have let it pass unnoticed.

In some small way at least, anyone who has taken an un-taped razor needing touch-up, and then added tape to re-establish the edge has already completed the experiment. Except for 1. it was not a fresh 16k edge. 2. perhaps not refinished at 30k.

My earlier point should have only been taken as a reminder of how the math does not support the premise that significant strengthening will occur with this minimal alteration. While technically true any advance in longevity should be treated suspect due to 1. subjective nature of the analysis. 2. any greater care taken in experimental mode which may be over and above normal, casual practice.

As I continued by example of error; the change is nevertheless real.

Just throwing this out there in case anyone has some insight into it.

I'm really curious as to the effects of previous honing (in a progression) on later honing. Specifically:

1. The second-highest grit hone I have is my Chinese "12K". When my brother gave me the Shapton 30K for my birthday (shock/awe!), he said he'd been told by Howard at The Perfect Edge that it would be fine for me to jump from my 12K to the 30,000. My brother asked him about it specifically. While I'm sure Howard must know loads more about these things than I do, I keep reading where people are talking about going from the Shapton 16K to the 30K as if it's the only way to fly.

2. What I particularly dig about this microbevel approach is that it seems like it could negate some of the possible negative effects of skipping that 16K step.

So....

I'm leaning towards saving up for the Shapton 16K, but, in the meantime, would you guys suspect I'd get a better edge going from my Chinese 12K to the 30K using microbevels, or no? When taping, does it mean I should go with more than 10 strokes?

Hope this relates enough to the original topic. Also, please feel free to answer any other questions I haven't thought of yet.

Originally Posted by kevint

I am unaware that Mike's testing requires staying behind the edge as you describe the knife guy doing, as you say he is.

that is not what he said
In this case however,(missing from your overview) the only real advantage is reducing the number of strokes to establish the finish edge.

Kevin,

Mike's technique is not calling for an outright "reduction of the relief angle", as done in knife sharpening, but the concept of what that guy in the picture is doing is very similar to what I think we (everyone, not just this thread) are trying to do by not over sharpening the edge on a razor. IMO he goes about it in a very deliberate manner, which is in the same spirit as this experiment. As Northpaw pointed out, it is a pure 30K edge, with no scratches left by previous stones (in theory). The picture proves this is obtainable.

Mike, I do admit that Tom's lecture on the needs and purpose of spine taping was a touch insulting. I should have let it pass unnoticed.

It wasn't meant to be a lecture, IMO. I was stating my reasons for taping the spine. Personally, I am not a big fan of taping, but I do not denounce it, either. I'm very much an "ends justifies the means" sharpener.

My earlier point should have only been taken as a reminder of how the math does not support the premise that significant strengthening will occur with this minimal alteration.

I respectfully disagree, and would also like to point out that the math doesn't point out that this minimal alteration will not significantly strengthen the edge, either! Most experiments tell us what doesn't work long before we find the one that does. The general rule in any sharpening is the more obtuse the angle, the stronger it is.

We are all on our own sharpening journey. I'm taking this path this week to see where it leads, not to build a better mousetrap, but to explore the possibilities of what this experiment may have on this and other sharpening applications. If it's a dead end, then it is a (subjectively) proven dead end, and I will have learned from experience.

I use Shap 30k stones all the time to hone razors. Just got a call today from a guy who sent me a Japanese razor that I dialed in and finished on a 30k and he says it's the best shave he's ever gotten. He even said he didn't need his doctor wife standing by to stop the bleeding he'd gotten before. I'm not crazy about the Japanese razors and I did send the guy a Wade & Butcher which he said does great on his face. They're both finished to 30k. Now on to microbevels. I'm not crazy about microbevels. Awhile back Tim Zowada posted micropix of microbeveled razors and they were astoundingly sharp . . . for awhile. A number of folks reported that although very sharp at first, the edge didn't last very long. I will have to try it though as I'm always looking for . . . the perfect edge. Thanks for the post!

I remember your brother asking me that! You've got a great brother and Christmas is coming soon so be nice and make a list! : ). If all you have is a Chinese 12k and a Shap 30, then use those two stones to finish your honing. You will, in my opinion, get better results from going from a Shap 16 to a Shap 30 but your brother wasn't buying the whole set. Personally, I don't like the Chinese stones. I have them and have used them but they're not my cup of tea. My suggestion is to move to the Shaptons and get set up. I use them almost exclusively now to hone razors and get consistently great shaving edges. At the honing bench I test them on the back of my hand and it's still smooth from last week's honing sessions - it's been about 3 days since I've honed. The hair on the back of my hand grows back more slowly than the hair on my face but the difference between the two hands has been enough for people to comment on them. My wife wishes I'd stop doing it as she says it looks weird.

Originally Posted by Howard

I remember your brother asking me that! You've got a great brother and Christmas is coming soon so be nice and make a list! : ). If all you have is a Chinese 12k and a Shap 30, then use those two stones to finish your honing. You will, in my opinion, get better results from going from a Shap 16 to a Shap 30 but your brother wasn't buying the whole set. Personally, I don't like the Chinese stones. I have them and have used them but they're not my cup of tea. My suggestion is to move to the Shaptons and get set up. I use them almost exclusively now to hone razors and get consistently great shaving edges. At the honing bench I test them on the back of my hand and it's still smooth from last week's honing sessions - it's been about 3 days since I've honed. The hair on the back of my hand grows back more slowly than the hair on my face but the difference between the two hands has been enough for people to comment on them. My wife wishes I'd stop doing it as she says it looks weird.

Thanks for the confirmation about the 12k. Best little brother ever, huh? Especially remembering enough to ask about specifics after an off-hand conversation I had with him. Then again, the conversation occurred while I was shaving him, so maybe that had something to do with his retention of the relevant facts!


Back on point: are there theories as to why a microbevel might not last as long, or was that just what some folks have observed?