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09-09-2009, 04:52 AM #1
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Thanked: 43I think we are talking semantics here, overall, but in the search for the ever better shave there is no end!
Taping of the spine is essentially what this experiment is dong, except for taping the entire way, only the edge of the edge on the last step will be produced. Taping has other reasons, usually - one is to avoid spine wear, not to adjust the angle of the bevel, per se; and the other is because of spine wear, the spine thickness to blade width ratio has been altered to the point where the edge is too weak without tape.
On another the knife forums, there is a guy who likes to do just what Mike is doing, but on his kitchen knives. He purposely stays right behind the edge, thinning out the bevel, if you will, and then on that last stone, he raises the angle so that the two sides meet in the middle. Here's a magnified pic link to a 3, 5, and 7 degree bevel (7 being the edge angle, so it's really 14 degrees in total on the knife when you flip it over) made by a Shapton 8K glass (white) stone.
It goes along the lines of avoiding over honing or burr forming, since the stone will leave scratches in the metal that could be too deep right at the tip. By doing this method, you avoid making the edge too fragile or too thin.
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09-09-2009, 07:43 AM #2
I was also thinking that as long as the single layer of tape changes the angle enough to actually produce a second bevel (which the guys with magnification are saying), it's also a way to ensure that the final edge is "pure 30k". Hope that makes sense.
I have to say, the shave I got was closer than I realized. I didn't know there were degrees of BBS! Maybe the additional sharpness was the reason the edge didn't feel particularly smooth, but I'm now at approx. hour 17 after that shave I reported y'day, and I can't see or feel any stubble to shave before I go to work today. This is an unusually lengthy time for me - especially since I wasn't trying hard to get BBS and didn't suffer much irritation to speak of. I've got a darker beard and relatively pale skin, so I've always felt I had to shave every day to look professional. Now I'm not sure.
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09-09-2009, 01:31 PM #3
I am unaware that Mike's testing requires staying behind the edge as you describe the knife guy doing, as you say he is.
that is not what he said
In this case however,(missing from your overview) the only real advantage is reducing the number of strokes to establish the finish edge.
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09-09-2009, 02:42 PM #4
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09-09-2009, 04:38 PM #5Be careful how you treat people on your way up, you may meet them again on your way back down.
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09-09-2009, 05:11 PM #6
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09-09-2009, 06:33 PM #7
Mike, I do admit that Tom's lecture on the needs and purpose of spine taping was a touch insulting. I should have let it pass unnoticed.
In some small way at least, anyone who has taken an un-taped razor needing touch-up, and then added tape to re-establish the edge has already completed the experiment. Except for 1. it was not a fresh 16k edge. 2. perhaps not refinished at 30k.
My earlier point should have only been taken as a reminder of how the math does not support the premise that significant strengthening will occur with this minimal alteration. While technically true any advance in longevity should be treated suspect due to 1. subjective nature of the analysis. 2. any greater care taken in experimental mode which may be over and above normal, casual practice.
As I continued by example of error; the change is nevertheless real.
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09-09-2009, 08:15 PM #8
Just throwing this out there in case anyone has some insight into it.
I'm really curious as to the effects of previous honing (in a progression) on later honing. Specifically:
1. The second-highest grit hone I have is my Chinese "12K". When my brother gave me the Shapton 30K for my birthday (shock/awe!), he said he'd been told by Howard at The Perfect Edge that it would be fine for me to jump from my 12K to the 30,000. My brother asked him about it specifically. While I'm sure Howard must know loads more about these things than I do, I keep reading where people are talking about going from the Shapton 16K to the 30K as if it's the only way to fly.
2. What I particularly dig about this microbevel approach is that it seems like it could negate some of the possible negative effects of skipping that 16K step.
So....
I'm leaning towards saving up for the Shapton 16K, but, in the meantime, would you guys suspect I'd get a better edge going from my Chinese 12K to the 30K using microbevels, or no? When taping, does it mean I should go with more than 10 strokes?
Hope this relates enough to the original topic. Also, please feel free to answer any other questions I haven't thought of yet.Last edited by northpaw; 09-09-2009 at 08:17 PM. Reason: sig added
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09-09-2009, 10:36 PM #9
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Thanked: 43Kevin,
Mike's technique is not calling for an outright "reduction of the relief angle", as done in knife sharpening, but the concept of what that guy in the picture is doing is very similar to what I think we (everyone, not just this thread) are trying to do by not over sharpening the edge on a razor. IMO he goes about it in a very deliberate manner, which is in the same spirit as this experiment. As Northpaw pointed out, it is a pure 30K edge, with no scratches left by previous stones (in theory). The picture proves this is obtainable.
Mike, I do admit that Tom's lecture on the needs and purpose of spine taping was a touch insulting. I should have let it pass unnoticed.
My earlier point should have only been taken as a reminder of how the math does not support the premise that significant strengthening will occur with this minimal alteration.
We are all on our own sharpening journey. I'm taking this path this week to see where it leads, not to build a better mousetrap, but to explore the possibilities of what this experiment may have on this and other sharpening applications. If it's a dead end, then it is a (subjectively) proven dead end, and I will have learned from experience.
Last edited by jendeindustries; 09-09-2009 at 10:39 PM.