Thread: My razor is too sharp???? I like a duller edge??

Originally Posted by Slartibartfast

Sharpness is next to godliness

Or at least "Goodliness"

Originally Posted by gssixgun

OK, I have seen this statement one too many times...

First, please only answer if you can explain how you are getting a slightly duller blade...

I really don't wanna hear about "I like a Coticule" or a Ch12k or any other finish stone or paste....really that has nothing to do with "sharpness"..

Not sure why the sarcasm. I'm one of those making "I like a duller edge" sort of statements the last few years, so I guess I'll try to address your questions.

I think what you're missing is: duller compared to what?

What I mean by "I like a duller edge" is "I like a duller edge than a feather ac".

Basically, I don't like the sort of edges you get with the feather ac or even the DE blades. They leave my face feeling raw no matter how lightly I try to use the razor. My skin starts thinning out within a few days and gets so that I can't get through a shave without unexplained nicks, and sometimes if I rub my face during the day it will start bleeding in spots. It's likely that I'm using too much pressure, that if only I could lighten up a bit more everything would be fine and I could shave with the feather ac all the time, but after all these years I really don't care any more, I'm using as little pressure as I can and it's just not working.

Even with that knowledge, I used to believe that it was impossible to get a straight razor "too sharp". Once I got good enough with the hones, and got good enough hones, then I started having the same problems with my straight razors as I had with the Feather. This is a bigger problem with the heavier razors than with the little 5/8 solingens, but eventually I started having these problems with the solingens as well. Again, it's likely that I'm using too much pressure, that if only I could lighten up a bit more everything would be fine and I could shave with these edges all the time, but after all these years I really don't care any more, I'm using as little pressure as I can and it's just not working.

So, I've decided that I prefer a duller edge. Duller by the feather ac standard of sharp, and duller by my standard of sharp. I have no idea if the edges I'm using are duller by anybody elses standard of sharp, nor do I particularly care. With my preferred "daily sharp" I get a bit more resistance during the shave, but still get BBS and my face feels much better afterwards. Also, how "dull" the blade needs to be depends on the weight of the razor. For full hollow 5/8ths it's just below my max level of sharp, for big sheffield choppers it's even duller.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

So what do you "slightly duller" guys do???

Flunk a few tests???
The TNT slides ???
The TPT test is only sticky in spots???
It skips when you shave???
You cork it like a DE blade????


This I gotta hear, PLEASE somebody tell me how to hone my razors to a slightly duller edge???

I never do the TNT, whether I'm shooting for feather sharp or for my normal daily level of sharp.

I never do the TPT, whether I'm shooting for feather sharp or for my normal daily level of sharp.

I do have other tests that I use, and I use those whether I'm shooting for feather sharp or for my normal daily level of sharp.

The razor never skips when I shave, whatever the level of sharpness. That is simply not acceptable.

The razor never pulls uncomfortably, whatever the level of sharpness. That is simply not acceptable. A bit of resistance is fine, I get that even with the too-sharp feather, so I stopped worrying about it. It's not uncomfortable though.

My feather AC blades get corked about 5 strokes through cork before use. so if you've got a feather ac, that gives you an idea of what "slightly duller" means to me for a 6/8 razor.


As for how I do it when I'm honing, it's really very easy. All it requires is that when I get to the final finishing stage I don't sweat trying to get that final bit of sharpness. I stop at the 30k or Nakayama, instead of going on to the 0.1 micron diamond or 0.05 micron aluminum oxide or newspaper. If I'm honing a sheffield then I'll stop at the shapton 8k or 15k, or the thuringen, or something like that. My edges are very sharp but they are not feather sharp. They do not thin my skin like a feather. They are pretty sharp, but they are not as sharp as I can get them - they are "slightly duller".

Honestly I have now shaved with a few Feathers TY Don and Logistics...

I am sorry but I don't think the edges are any sharper than some of the American NY steel straights out there...
They are less forgiving, as in they have a dead straight edge, they are using near a 25 degree double bevel, and they are much shorter...
But if it were possible to measure true sharpness as in the micron thickness of the edges I would again bet we are within 1ooths of a micron to the sharpest of the straights...

Now I am by no means saying that all straights are created equal either, for shear wicked sharp I seriously think some of the NY Americans are the sharpest edges I have ever attained...
I also think this is why some of the W&B and the older heavier steel razors are so popular is because they are not able to attain that sharp of an edge... Thus they are more forgiving and feel smoother to most people...

But they are all still maxed out for sharpness....so by that standard each edge is as sharp as it can get if that edge felt "too sharp" I would change razors...

I am one of the ones who has even today spoken about preferring a blade that isn't scary sharp. But, on thinking about it, maybe my statements need to be nuanced a little more. I use balsa and pastes a lot. So, maybe what I am saying is that I prefer an edge that is slightly rounded and smooth, even though it might not slice thru whiskers with the abandon of a non-rounded (slightly) edge.

From what I read, the actual cutting edge might be as sharp in a slightly rounded edge as in a scary sharp blade.

But, dropping the detailed, speaking descriptively of the shave experience...

After a shave with a scary sharp blade, my face feels a little tender at times. This includes my own razors, or even the razor from Lynn. I actually prefer the shave of these razors better after they have been used a little. (Of course, they can get too dull!)

Larry do you maybe think it is more you adjust your technique to the edge, rather than they get duller?????

Originally Posted by mparker762

As for how I do it when I'm honing, it's really very easy. All it requires is that when I get to the final finishing stage I don't sweat trying to get that final bit of sharpness. I stop at the 30k or Nakayama, instead of going on to the 0.1 micron diamond or 0.05 micron aluminum oxide or newspaper. If I'm honing a sheffield then I'll stop at the shapton 8k or 15k, or the thuringen, or something like that. My edges are very sharp but they are not feather sharp. They do not thin my skin like a feather. They are pretty sharp, but they are not as sharp as I can get them - they are "slightly duller".

Ok there is where ya lost me,,,
Anything in the finishing stages is about finishing not about sharpness...
You are talking again differences in the 1/1ooths of a micron on any given razor.... If you go farther the edge fails and you get a harsh shave....

You know exactly where and how far to take an edge, I am pretty sure of that, I would never push a maxed out edge either...

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Larry do you maybe think it is more you adjust your technique to the edge, rather than they get duller?????

That is a possibility that I haven't thought about before. Maybe.

I read a day or two ago that when you analyze the residue coming off any razor of any type, there is more epithelial tissue (skin) in it than most think. We are literally shaving off the topmost layer of our dead skin when we shave. Even though I might be adjusting my shave technique when my blade becomes slightly duller, my best guess is that a slightly duller blade doesn't dig quite as deep into this top layer of skin cells. But, still shaves.

I suspect the razor slides more, still depressing the skin and slicing beard, giving an equivalent shave.

Guessing...

Originally Posted by gssixgun

OK, I have seen this statement one too many times...

First, please only answer if you can explain how you are getting a slightly duller blade...

This is all relative . compare to what? or what is sharpness standard for someone . it is going to be personal choose.Example if i say this blade too sharp same blade could be for you dull etc.

I really don't wanna hear about "I like a Coticule" or a Ch12k or any other finish stone or paste....really that has nothing to do with "sharpness"..

Why not you don't wanna hear about it? what you mean nothing do to sharpness? i am respectfully disagree on this. They (stones ,pastes etc has everything to do with sharpness.

This I gotta hear, PLEASE somebody tell me how to hone my razors to a slightly duller edge???

I am sure i can help with this one. Please finish your honing coticule or Escher stone and see how it does shave

I think Glen confusion is not duller razor but sharp razor's. Again they are relative terms.
I know you do have and use pastes. if you want to see which sharpness is bothering people i think use Flormonica 14( i am sure you have couple of them) after finishing on Escher mover to .25 diamond paste for 30-40 laps and shave see how it does shave.

There's sharpness as measured across the bevels, and percieved sharpness on your face. The two are not the same, and because they're both commonly called "sharpness" the distinction is often blurred. I think that's what's tripping you up here.

The commercial guys treat their blades two different ways for the two different types of sharpness. for the first type, they hone their edges using a fairly low-grit hone, based on the photos we've seen around here. for the second type of sharpness they coat the blade in teflon to lower cutting friction. This teflon coated edge isn't any sharper as measured across the bevels, but it acts like it's a whole lot sharper when you put it to your face.
See the article "Making of the Modern Blade" on the Schick website where they talk about these two types of sharpness.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Honestly I have now shaved with a few Feathers TY Don and Logistics...

I am sorry but I don't think the edges are any sharper than some of the American NY steel straights out there...
They are less forgiving, as in they have a dead straight edge, they are using near a 25 degree double bevel, and they are much shorter...
But if it were possible to measure true sharpness as in the micron thickness of the edges I would again bet we are within 1ooths of a micron to the sharpest of the straights...

I'm quite sure that they are nearly exactly the same width across the bevels. Verhoeven demonstrated that the limits for the edge width arrive at a surprisingly low abrasive grit, something around 4k or so, and that going up to 8000 grit and higher (he went up to 0.5 micron chrome oxide) doesn't change this fundamental sharpness.

So why do you hone your razors beyond 4k? Why use the yellow side of the norton, or a coticule or escher. Why do people argue about which gets a sharper edge, when the edge isn't getting any sharper? Something else is being done to that edge, something besides making it sharper. Something that doesn't make it sharper as measured across the bevels, but makes it feel and act for all the world as if it were sharper.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Now I am by no means saying that all straights are created equal either, for shear wicked sharp I seriously think some of the NY Americans are the sharpest edges I have ever attained...
I also think this is why some of the W&B and the older heavier steel razors are so popular is because they are not able to attain that sharp of an edge... Thus they are more forgiving and feel smoother to most people...

But they are all still maxed out for sharpness....so by that standard each edge is as sharp as it can get if that edge felt "too sharp" I would change razors...

By that definition my razors are maxed out on sharpness as well. But this definition doesn't capture the difference between an edge that is too sharp for me and one that is just right for me - that definition is not as useful for my purposes as the "perceived sharpness" definition of sharp. So when I say my razors are "slightly duller" I mean by the "percieved sharpness" definition of sharp. The only difference between my "sharp" edges and "slightly duller" edges is the level of polish on the bevel, which changes the amount of cutting friction that exists between the blade and my skin and whiskers, and changes the cutting dynamics just enough to save my skin from thinning.

I shaved for two years with an edge that came from the factory, "honed" by me on a concave Escher. I then proceeded to cutting and nicking the heck out of my strop, and continued using it. So I know about dull.

When I got this same razor back from one of our honemeisters, it was the first sharp razor I had used. After my first shave I had weepers all over my face and a few nicks. I've since learned to use a lighter hand and do very well with it. But....

Since I've honed a couple of my own blades, with a proper setup, I'm finding I get a more comfortable and closer shave with my blade, than one honed by a pro. This really surprised me because I'm not yet able to match in sharpness the pro edges that I have. I have four blades honed by three different honemeisters.

It can be argued that I just don't have the proper skill to use a professionally honed blade yet, and that would be correct. But if the end game is close, comfortable shaves, then I really don't need the proper skill to wield a professionally honed blade, since my edge works. Each persons shaving experience is different and I think there's a balance that must be struck between the keenness of an edge and the person's skill, to get a satisfying shave.

That's why I've said I like a duller edge, or a razor that isn't too sharp, in relation to honemeister sharp. I think the confusion is mostly semantics.

Having said all that, I'm sure as my shaving skill and honing skill increases, the sharpness bar I'm comfortable with, will move upward as well. And I do want to learn how to bring a blade to "scary sharp," but it's more for the fun of it than anything else.