Thread: My razor is too sharp???? I like a duller edge??

Originally Posted by Bart

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It may be that the finishing hone only squeezes 0.05 micron of the width of the edge. But 0.45 is still 10% keener than 0.50. At the same time, that 0.05 micron means far less if you're still at the 1 micron level (the notorious newbie error of jumping into finishing mode too soon).

I think the difference is much, much, less like maybe 1/100th of a micron not 5/100ths and I don't think you can feel or notice that difference...
But you can feel and notice the difference of the finish applied to the bevel just like Mr. Parker says....
Again back to the Sharpness-vs-Smoothness semantics...

I am absolutely disagree who says edge gets it is sharpness on 1k level 4k level.
REST is POLISHING?
Can a good Person explain to me what does polishing do? or meaning of it?
Does it changes thickness of the edge?
or just makes shiny bevel?
My opinion doesn't matter how you guys call darn edge gets sharper as you go all-way (1k,2k,5k,10k, so on)until the end depends where you stop.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

And I thought I was done with this

I absolutely positively disagree here, "for my face" the sharper/smoother the edge the lighter the touch the lighter the touch the smoother the stubble feels growing back... That sharp stubble feeling for me along with the irritation that follows, comes from pressing the edge into the skin and cutting the hair at more of an angle....Or using a not sharp enough blade....

Do you not get sharp stubble from a DE loaded with feathers?

Pressing in does sharpen the stubble as well, because the hairs are held in place by the skin so the razor cuts them straighter across. A teflon-coated blade produces sharp stubble because the resistance is so low that even without the skin's backing the whisker doesn't deflect much as it's being cut, so it cuts fairly straight across. A highly polished bevel, polished on something like 0.1 micron diamond also produces a sufficiently low resistance that the whisker doesn't deflect much as it's being cut, leaving a chisel edge that feels prickly when it grows back.

A razor that has a very sharp cutting edge in the 0.38 micron range (roughly the minimum that verhoeven found) but high cutting friction will tend to cut into the whisker, but as the blade spreads apart the whisker the resistance rises and unless the skin is taut and the razor is pressing down the whisker starts bending, causing the blade to start cutting diagonally and even splitting it lengthwise. This lowers the cutting friction because the fibrin is much stronger and more elastic along their length, and less between the individual bundles. And it also results in stubble that is softer and thinner at the tip when it eventually grows back.

Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

I am absolutely disagree who says edge gets it is sharpness on 1k level 4k level.
REST is POLISHING?
Can a good Person explain to me what does polishing do? or meaning of it?
Does it changes thickness of the edge?
or just makes shiny bevel?
My opinion doesn't matter how you guys call darn edge gets sharper as you go all-way (1k,2k,5k,10k, so on)until the end depends where you stop.

Dr. John Verhoeven, Distinguished Emeritus Professor, Materials Science and Engineering, Iowa State University

Experiments on Knife Sharpening

He examined the sharpening process using a variety of hones, examining the result under an electron microscope at up to 10,000x magnification. This allowed him to measure the width of the cutting edge to 0.01 micron. The paper at the link includes photos at up to 3,000x. If you haven't read it yet I encourage you to do so, there are some surprising results in there, backed up by photos from the electron microscope, like the width of these edges stopped improving at a surprisingly low grit, and there were no teeth on the edge past I believe about 2000 grit.


I agree the cutting efficiency improves as you go up in grit. But the edge doesn't get any narrower past about 4k - something else is improving the cutting efficiency. Something that can be achieved by either coating the edge in teflon (if you're honing a million blades a day and making them disposable) or by painstakingly polishing the edge (if you're honing say 20 blades a day and making them reusable).

Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

I am absolutely disagree who says edge gets it is sharpness on 1k level 4k level.
REST is POLISHING?
Can a good Person explain to me what does polishing do? or meaning of it?
Does it changes thickness of the edge?
or just makes shiny bevel?
My opinion doesn't matter how you guys call darn edge gets sharper as you go all-way (1k,2k,5k,10k, so on)until the end depends where you stop.

Here is what is being said Sham in numbers

Lets say the edge starts .at .75 microns you sharpen in the 1-4k range to .48 the last bit of finishing takes the edge to the max sharpness of .47
between the 4k level and whatever level if you go too...

Hone or paste past this mystery blade's max level of .47 then you would overhone and the edge fails at least that is what I am saying... in very simple form

Originally Posted by mparker762

I agree the cutting efficiency improves as you go up in grit. But the edge doesn't get any narrower past about 4k - something else is improving the cutting efficiency.

I'm still wet behind the ears when it comes to this ... figuratively speaking... so I am letting the big guys fight it out but I am with hi_bud in that ,whatever it is, something is improving (sharpening ?) the edge past 4k.

Originally Posted by mparker762

Dr. John Verhoeven, Distinguished Emeritus Professor, Materials Science and Engineering, Iowa State University

Experiments on Knife Sharpening

He examined the sharpening process using a variety of hones, examining the result under an electron microscope at up to 10,000x magnification. This allowed him to measure the width of the cutting edge to 0.01 micron. The paper at the link includes photos at up to 3,000x. If you haven't read it yet I encourage you to do so, there are some surprising results in there, backed up by photos from the electron microscope, like the width of these edges stopped improving at a surprisingly low grit

Way the second ?what you say? stopped improving? do you mean edges doesn't get any narrower?if that is what you mean sorry i am disagree

, and there were no teeth on the edge past I believe about 2000 grit.

i can see clear tooth after norton 4k.

I agree the cutting efficiency improves as you go up in grit. But the edge doesn't get any narrower past about 4k - something else is improving the cutting efficiency.

What else will improve cutting efficiency? cutting edge gets narrower and sharper as you go up to the grit's.
Some people may call it differently but that is the way sharpness increase.
Simple example you can get maximum edge from particular stone. Example if you get maximum sharpness from Ecsher after 100 strokes. you will not get any sharper even you make 100000 more strokes after 100 strokes?
You know why ? edge gets narrower as mush as escher can do (particular stone maximum ability) after that using escher is nonsense . if you want to get more sharper you have to use another brand better final edge putting stone .
This is what i have experienced .

Since there are many experienced members here, I have a question. Does the grind of the blade effect the impact of the shave in the context of sharpness? The reason I ask is that I feel like the full hollow is the easiest grind to use and hone, but I feel like the wedges really do better than one pass than the full hollow. I am sure its probably the honing, but I use a 12K on each and finish CrOx paste. They all easily pass the HHT and shave test, but I was just wandering if the grind effecting the feel of the edge is related to this topic.

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

I'm still wet behind the ears when it comes to this ... figuratively speaking... so I am letting the big guys fight it out but I am with hi_bud in that ,whatever it is, something is improving (sharpening ?) the edge past 4k.

I think we all agree that something is making the razor sharper past 4k. The disagreement is over precisely what sharpness is, and what causes it, and what is the cause of the improvement in sharpness after the bevel stops improving.

Is it solely the width of the cutting edge?

Is it the width of the cutting edge plus the friction in the 120microns of bevel behind that cutting edge?

Is it the jagginess or lack thereof in the edge?

Is it due to the honing angle?

etc.

Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

What else will improve cutting efficiency? cutting edge gets narrower and sharper as you go up to the grit's.
Some people may call it differently but that is the way sharpness increase.
Simple example you can get maximum edge from particular stone. Example if you get maximum sharpness from Ecsher after 100 strokes. you will not get any sharper even you make 100000 more strokes after 100 strokes?
You know why ? edge gets narrower as mush as escher can do (particular stone maximum ability) after that using escher is nonsense . if you want to get more sharper you have to use another brand better final edge putting stone .
This is what i have experienced .

You are saying the same thing we all are....
Basically that an edge only gets so sharp period....

The only difference is you think it gets there at higher grits then what we do...