Thread: My razor is too sharp???? I like a duller edge??

Originally Posted by gssixgun

I think there is confusion with "Finish" and "Sharpness"

And maybe this is all semantics...

But I keep seeing the same statements so I figured it was time to really discuss it

I also think that the difference between your Escher, your Coticule and your Shapton has nothing to do with "sharpness" I think all 3 are within 1/100 of a micron on any given razor...and if you push it farther the edge fails and you get a harsh shave...

I think it is a matter of semantics.... if anyone really wanted to shave with a dull razor I couldn't understand that either.

Glen I see what you mean about them all being within a close range on the micron scale. I wonder if the shape of the abrasive has anything to do with it ? You've got garnet with the coticule, quartz with the Escher and damned if I know with the Shapton pro. (I'm a poet and I don't know it)

Now I have seen many say that they get a smoother feeling edge off of 0.5 chrom ox than off of 0.5 diamond paste and I have experienced that myself on some razors ..... not on others but my point is that there does seem to be a difference in the way some edges feel on the face coming off of one abrasive compared to another.

Sharpness is next to godliness

Originally Posted by Slartibartfast

Sharpness is next to godliness

Or at least "Goodliness"

Honestly I have now shaved with a few Feathers TY Don and Logistics...

I am sorry but I don't think the edges are any sharper than some of the American NY steel straights out there...
They are less forgiving, as in they have a dead straight edge, they are using near a 25 degree double bevel, and they are much shorter...
But if it were possible to measure true sharpness as in the micron thickness of the edges I would again bet we are within 1ooths of a micron to the sharpest of the straights...

Now I am by no means saying that all straights are created equal either, for shear wicked sharp I seriously think some of the NY Americans are the sharpest edges I have ever attained...
I also think this is why some of the W&B and the older heavier steel razors are so popular is because they are not able to attain that sharp of an edge... Thus they are more forgiving and feel smoother to most people...

But they are all still maxed out for sharpness....so by that standard each edge is as sharp as it can get if that edge felt "too sharp" I would change razors...

There's sharpness as measured across the bevels, and percieved sharpness on your face. The two are not the same, and because they're both commonly called "sharpness" the distinction is often blurred. I think that's what's tripping you up here.

The commercial guys treat their blades two different ways for the two different types of sharpness. for the first type, they hone their edges using a fairly low-grit hone, based on the photos we've seen around here. for the second type of sharpness they coat the blade in teflon to lower cutting friction. This teflon coated edge isn't any sharper as measured across the bevels, but it acts like it's a whole lot sharper when you put it to your face.
See the article "Making of the Modern Blade" on the Schick website where they talk about these two types of sharpness.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Honestly I have now shaved with a few Feathers TY Don and Logistics...

I am sorry but I don't think the edges are any sharper than some of the American NY steel straights out there...
They are less forgiving, as in they have a dead straight edge, they are using near a 25 degree double bevel, and they are much shorter...
But if it were possible to measure true sharpness as in the micron thickness of the edges I would again bet we are within 1ooths of a micron to the sharpest of the straights...

I'm quite sure that they are nearly exactly the same width across the bevels. Verhoeven demonstrated that the limits for the edge width arrive at a surprisingly low abrasive grit, something around 4k or so, and that going up to 8000 grit and higher (he went up to 0.5 micron chrome oxide) doesn't change this fundamental sharpness.

So why do you hone your razors beyond 4k? Why use the yellow side of the norton, or a coticule or escher. Why do people argue about which gets a sharper edge, when the edge isn't getting any sharper? Something else is being done to that edge, something besides making it sharper. Something that doesn't make it sharper as measured across the bevels, but makes it feel and act for all the world as if it were sharper.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Now I am by no means saying that all straights are created equal either, for shear wicked sharp I seriously think some of the NY Americans are the sharpest edges I have ever attained...
I also think this is why some of the W&B and the older heavier steel razors are so popular is because they are not able to attain that sharp of an edge... Thus they are more forgiving and feel smoother to most people...

But they are all still maxed out for sharpness....so by that standard each edge is as sharp as it can get if that edge felt "too sharp" I would change razors...

By that definition my razors are maxed out on sharpness as well. But this definition doesn't capture the difference between an edge that is too sharp for me and one that is just right for me - that definition is not as useful for my purposes as the "perceived sharpness" definition of sharp. So when I say my razors are "slightly duller" I mean by the "percieved sharpness" definition of sharp. The only difference between my "sharp" edges and "slightly duller" edges is the level of polish on the bevel, which changes the amount of cutting friction that exists between the blade and my skin and whiskers, and changes the cutting dynamics just enough to save my skin from thinning.

I think what we're arguing about is really just definitions.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Ok there is where ya lost me,,,
Anything in the finishing stages is about finishing not about sharpness...
You are talking again differences in the 1/1ooths of a micron on any given razor.... If you go farther the edge fails and you get a harsh shave....

You know exactly where and how far to take an edge, I am pretty sure of that, I would never push a maxed out edge either...

This gets back to the two definitions of sharpness. Anything after about 4k is about finishing not sharpness across the bevel. If you use a coticule then you're talking about finishing and not sharpness across the bevel. If you believe that the norton 8k produces a sharper edge than the 4k or that the coticule produces a sharper edge than the norton 8k then you're also talking about that looser definition of sharpness that i'm calling "percieved sharpness".

I'm not talking differences in the 1/100ths of a micron of the edge. The edge just doesn't get any sharper - the steel just can't handle being that thin and crumbles away like a cliff edge, whether you're at 4k or 30k - the edge is the same thickness across. going to too high a polish doesn't make the edge fail - it's been failing since you left the 4k hone. What is different is the polish on the bevel behind that broken edge of steel, and that affects the cutting friction. At some point if the cutting friction gets too low it gets to the point where the blade has too easy of a time cutting through the skin, and the blade feels harsh. The feather ac does this with a coarse honing and a generous coating of teflon. My sharp edges do this with a fine honing and a good polishing on 0.1 micron diamond. I don't like that, so I don't do it anymore.

If you don't use 0.25 or 0.1 micron diamond because you think it makes the edge too harsh, then that's exactly what I'm doing when I hone my edges to a slightly dull level. You're calling it avoiding overhoning, I'm calling it less sharp. This is probably due to our two differing views as to what constitutes sharpness, but we're doing the same thing we just have different theories as to why.

I am one of the ones who has even today spoken about preferring a blade that isn't scary sharp. But, on thinking about it, maybe my statements need to be nuanced a little more. I use balsa and pastes a lot. So, maybe what I am saying is that I prefer an edge that is slightly rounded and smooth, even though it might not slice thru whiskers with the abandon of a non-rounded (slightly) edge.

From what I read, the actual cutting edge might be as sharp in a slightly rounded edge as in a scary sharp blade.

But, dropping the detailed, speaking descriptively of the shave experience...

After a shave with a scary sharp blade, my face feels a little tender at times. This includes my own razors, or even the razor from Lynn. I actually prefer the shave of these razors better after they have been used a little. (Of course, they can get too dull!)

Larry do you maybe think it is more you adjust your technique to the edge, rather than they get duller?????

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Larry do you maybe think it is more you adjust your technique to the edge, rather than they get duller?????

That is a possibility that I haven't thought about before. Maybe.

I read a day or two ago that when you analyze the residue coming off any razor of any type, there is more epithelial tissue (skin) in it than most think. We are literally shaving off the topmost layer of our dead skin when we shave. Even though I might be adjusting my shave technique when my blade becomes slightly duller, my best guess is that a slightly duller blade doesn't dig quite as deep into this top layer of skin cells. But, still shaves.

I suspect the razor slides more, still depressing the skin and slicing beard, giving an equivalent shave.

Guessing...

Semantics, indeed.

Against better judgement, allow me to stick my nose in that wasps nest...

In my daily recurring pondering about razor edges, I differentiate in my mind between a few terms:

-Sharpness: how easily the edge can cleave (a whisker, in our cause): Both "keenness" and "jaggedess" contribute to "sharpness".

-Keenness: how thin the line is where both bevel sides meet each other.

-Jaggedness: microscopical irregular projections and indentations at the very edge (sawtooth patterns if you wish) add considerate penetration ability.

For some examples:

-The DMT1200 edge, which is very sticky on both the TNT and TPT and easily pops a hanging hair, lends it sharpness on plenty of jaggedness and reasonable keenness.

-The completed bevel on a typical Coticule with slurry feels less sticky on TNT and TPT, and does not pop a hanging hair. There is no jaggedness to aid the keenness.

-Often, progressing to a finer step in a setup of synthetic water hones, makes the edge appear less sharp after the first laps. I believe this is because the jaggedness disappears before the keenness catches up after doing some more work.

Now, as far as "too sharp" is concerned. I believe people sometimes say this when the edge is too harsh. Harshness, I believe is caused by jaggedness, even if this occurs at micron level.
"Too sharp" can also mean that the person using the razor, is used to shaving with and edge that is more forgiving to applied pressure or an edge that allows for a steeper shaving angle or an edge that sustains pronounced scything motions without sinking into the skin.

This I gotta hear, PLEASE somebody tell me how to hone my razors to a slightly duller edge???

A few weeks ago I honed a razor for SRP-member Bromion, after he posted about ongoing irritation issues.
I first honed my usual routine. Shaved 4 full passes (1 WTG, 1 XTG and 2 ATG) with that razor, something I never do otherwise. Paid attention to the sting of the alum block. Before the next test shave, I toned down the edge a bit with 10 laps on a Coticule with very light slurry. (I know this brings the keenness down a bit).
Payed attention during the next test shave (again 4 passes) if I didn't went overboard. The razor definitely felt different, not as effortness, but certainly not pulling either. But: no sting on the alum whatsoever this time. That's how I send the razor to Jason.

I salute the guys from the Shapon 30K experiment. I love what they're doing. But I 'm not into shaving with feather light touch myself. I believe it's great that there are all these different preferences in razors, hones, pastes and the edges rendered by all the variables. Isn't that one of the things what keeps us all coming back to SRP?

Bart.