Thread: Do I Need Another Nakayama?

Originally Posted by Kees

@Kingfish:

I have a Nakayama that gives great edges. I recently discovered that using a Cr2O3 pasted strop after the Nakayama improves the edge. Not so much increased sharpness but smoothness. A smoother edge feels sharper, at least to me.

I suggest you try chromox. before spending a fortune on another Nakayama.

Again with common sense. "A fool and their money are soon parted" Kees, I am a fool!!

All this confusion about natural stones is exactly why I do all my finishing on diamond film I make a mirror out of an edge in short time with diamond films, and it's uber consistent. Did I mention it's cheap, probably cause it wasn't hauled from a mountain top in Japan lol. I'd love some of these JNAT's but I'm poo ( I cant even afford the R)

Cheers
David

Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

You don't have right stone. You should never need any other stone after your Nakayama.
In your case your Nakayama is not fine enough. This doesn't mean it is not a good stone .
As much as i test Japanese stones i get more confuse. There are so many of them out there and they do act differently.
who guaranties you your next Nakayama will be the what you are looking for?So far i have seen only 1 seller which openly told me if you don't like the stone you will get your money back. gl.



By the way Escher's are exceptional stones. They will put the final edge but wont work afte 4k or 8k you need to go to at the last stage. at least after 12 k.
hope this helps

Time will tell Sham. I am more confused than ever and you all nave taught me so much , but I know much more now in my confusion than when I came here thinking I knew alot.

Originally Posted by kevint

Your right in that I have never hankered for the 30. Usually the edge I shave with is a little shy of the best I've ever felt. I would like a quality escher-esque german hone. Those are impressive if you have handled many rocks.

have you taken that imperfect nakayama edge to the escher? Only my asagi has eclipsed that combo.

If you duplicate and get something too close to the action of the one you have you may get bummed, just like you dont need another 30 . (I'd like to duplicate some of my stones but only to be larger, but i have these because large cost too much).

I really didn't mean the harder the better. I hope that's not what I said . I want just a teeny bit of slurry to develop. So little that you just guess that there really is a little bit.

.

It is so hard to generalize the function of hardness,but for me I get better edges from generaly harder stones since I have learned more patience. If you push stone especially harder ones too fast, goodbye edge.

Originally Posted by OLD_SCHOOL

It is very possible that the stone isn't as high in grit as your Shapton 30k. Another possibility, I don't know if this applies to you 100% or not. But two common things that interfere with the best results of a Nakayama hone are incorrect lapping, and the use of slurries. I know you said you use a slurry, but you didn't mention if you remove the slurry before the very final polish.

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I will try this. I did try to dllute then to wash off completetly, never considered lapping. And please do not misinterperate what I am sayingabout the Jnat,it has no equal out of all my tools. If I had to work with only one stone it would be it.

Originally Posted by onimaru55

You don't say what type of stone your Nakayama is, Asagi ,Suita, Namito ??
Just as an example I wouldn't dream of taking a 4k edge to my Nak Asagi.
As a polisher it is a relatively fast stone but not that fast. I borrowed a Nak Suita from So that was that fast, in fact I'd bet it could jump from 2k but the edges were something akin to a Feather blade until I used my polisher. I have tried finer Asagis than mine. Verry hard. Like honing on glass but out of my price range, but I sure would like one. Don't think you're the only HAD guy out there Maybe you do need a nice slowish hard polisher or just use the 30k. It sounds great.
Just a question on the 30 k Shapton will it polish an edge as quick after 4k as your Nak ? If not your Nakayama stone doesn't sound like it's in a similar grit range.

It was originaly descrbed as a Kita Asagi blend. It does have some sesamei(little black spots) over all an olive green color and a little dark was also used in the description if memory serves me. Maruichi family stamp.

Too answer your question re the 30k to answer emphaticaly, NO WAY IN H@ll!!!!! The 30k from my perspective is most at home at the very end of the game with an edge that is shave ready. I am only doing about as much metal removal as guys that use CrOx. I know there are some woodworkers that jump a bigger gap than that, but I would not waste my time with my Jnat sitting there.

Originally Posted by Kingfish

Too answer your question re the 30k to answer emphaticaly, NO WAY IN H@ll!!!!! The 30k from my perspective is most at home at the very end of the game with an edge that is shave ready. I am only doing about as much metal removal as guys that use CrOx. I know there are some woodworkers that jump a bigger gap than that, but I would not waste my time with my Jnat sitting there.

That's what I thought. If your J-nat is such an aggressive cutter to step up from 4k it couldn't do the polishing job of a 30k+ stone I know fast polishers exist but really now, who jumps from 4k to 30 k ?

This is a very timely thread! I have only had my J-Nat about 3 days and it has been a very eye opening experience. This stone has made me question many things that I took for granted in the past.

I use to hone using various stones and then finished up with Shapton 16 and 30K stones then finally 0.1 micron diamond film. When honing I noticed that the bevel would polish to a very bright mirror finish when I was done. The natural gave a polish, but in a hazy kind of way.

The shave test.. the natural gave me a shave that is far superior to the film in smoothness, very hard to reconcile in my mind. What an amazing shave. The matte finish the natural left is not totally unexpected considering that I have use a coticule for a while. When I use the natural I used a slurry made from the finishing stone. I obtained a J-Nat that is toward the top, for hardness, that the Japanese vendor offered. This begs a couple of questions. Could I obtain a Natural that will polish the bevel to a bright mirror surface? Will it matter? I have been shaving off diamond film, very fine, but still a diamond finish so I think that my point of view is pretty skewed.

Thanks a lot,
Richard

Originally Posted by riooso

Could I obtain a Natural that will polish the bevel to a bright mirror surface?

yes your Jnat with no slurry, or dry slurry.

Will it matter?

IMO no, shiny does not necessarily mean sharper or smoother.

I have been shaving off diamond film, very fine, but still a diamond finish so I think that my point of view is pretty skewed.

truth is in the eye of the beholder

Thanks a lot,
Richard

hope this helps.

Originally Posted by mainaman

hope this helps.

It has, tremendously! I used the hone wet with such a light touch it was like honing on glass yet it did a very good job at polishing the edge. The shave....WOW!

Thanks for your help you guys.
Richard

I find I like the less shiny edge off the J-Nats, yes I know I'm weird... Last night I was looking at bevels from my colticule finish and bevels from the J-Nats... (I was honeing my great grandfathers Shumate on my grandfathers coticule for fathrsday shave ) I know the Coticule edge shaves very well but the edge looked all scratchy but shiny. The one I did the night before off the J-Nats was not shiny but ALOT smoother looking. So in my mind (risky thought) shine means nothing to the shave, and this prooved it to me. It also didn't help my resistance of JHAD...

I have recently purchased a Maruka Nakayama Kiita and all I can say is WOW! My progression is the following. I have a nice Ohira finishing hone that a member helped me pick out. It is an excellent stone. I start with a 1K and then go to a set of nagura stones till I get to the finishing stone slurry, then finish off with water only. I liked the shave but, as stated before I used to go to a 0.1 diamond film. Smooth, but a hassle to use because it was just so dang sharp.

Then a Maruka Nakayama Kiita entered my life. I use it as a final finisher with it's own slurry then with water only. The edge is mirrored and it has a keenness that rivals my 30K,0.25,0.1 progression edge but without the problems of being overly keen. Simply the best edge I have ever used.

It may be that you need to bring up your edge without such big jumps till you get to the final stage of polishing, only you can tell, but I have found that it is possible to have an edge that is not only equal to, but superior to one that a 30K delivers. So much to learn!

Take Care,
Richard

Originally Posted by riooso

I have recently purchased a Maruka Nakayama Kiita and all I can say is WOW! My progression is the following. I have a nice Ohira finishing hone that a member helped me pick out. It is an excellent stone. I start with a 1K and then go to a set of nagura stones till I get to the finishing stone slurry, then finish off with water only. I liked the shave but, as stated before I used to go to a 0.1 diamond film. Smooth, but a hassle to use because it was just so dang sharp.

Then a Maruka Nakayama Kiita entered my life. I use it as a final finisher with it's own slurry then with water only. The edge is mirrored and it has a keenness that rivals my 30K,0.25,0.1 progression edge but without the problems of being overly keen. Simply the best edge I have ever used.

It may be that you need to bring up your edge without such big jumps till you get to the final stage of polishing, only you can tell, but I have found that it is possible to have an edge that is not only equal to, but superior to one that a 30K delivers. So much to learn!

Take Care,
Richard

I believe JimR (over across the hall...) also uses a dry slurry method as the final finishing step - that is, continue honing after last finishing stone slurry step until the slurry is getting dry. I tried this with great success, but I am still experimenting with other methods as well, so it's hard to put it all in perspective....