Thread: Harshness and Final Bevel Shape

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Interesting thought...

I think along the same lines but a slight bit different,,, You are thinking that it is the actual shape of the bevel that is improving the feel on the face...

First the disclaimer: The one thing that truly differentiates Straight Razor edges from every other type of sharpening is the "face factor"... This always throws an unknown into these discussions...

I agree to an extent that it is the sides of the bevel that create the comfort factor on an edge, but I don't think it is the shape I think it is the polish of those sides.. So in a way we agree that the more refined those sides are the better the blade feels on your face...

Interesting... If this is the case, why is it that many report more comfort from natural stones that leave a hazy bevel or one that looks like it's been sandblasted? I've become totally indifferent to the polish/refinement of the sides of the bevels and focus more on getting a more even/straight (no striations) and keen edge (perfect V shape). Or am I thinking of something else?

Originally Posted by richmondesi

Interesting... If this is the case, why is it that many report more comfort from natural stones that leave a hazy bevel or one that looks like it's been sandblasted? I've become totally indifferent to the polish/refinement of the sides of the bevels and focus more on getting a more even/straight (no striations) and keen edge (perfect V shape). Or am I thinking of something else?

IHNFC


Personally I dont think naturals are better, (refer to Disclaimer)

Also maybe that hazy look is still very smooth, I never said it had to be a mirror... I don't know...

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Interesting thought...

I think along the same lines but a slight bit different,,, You are thinking that it is the actual shape of the bevel that is improving the feel on the face...

First the disclaimer: The one thing that truly differentiates Straight Razor edges from every other type of sharpening is the "face factor"... This always throws an unknown into these discussions...

I agree to an extent that it is the sides of the bevel that create the comfort factor on an edge, but I don't think it is the shape I think it is the polish of those sides.. So in a way we agree that the more refined those sides are the better the blade feels on your face...

So we agree that a perfectly sharp edge is not the only thing going on in a smooth shave? Be it covextivity or the degree of polish, the edge is not just simply sharp, there is more going on?

From what I understand Naturals stones grit is more like discs rather than spheres , therefore making shallower scratch pattern thus giving the sandblasted look. I remember a bunch of threads made to report that convexing the bevel either with pasted strops or with leaving a bit of sag on the strop, indeed gives better shaving experience. In my experience only a few razors give very comfortable shave straight off the Nat finisher, most blades need to be finished on CrO or Diamond spray to feel as smooth as possibe.

Originally Posted by Kingfish

So we agree that a perfectly sharp edge is not the only thing going on in a smooth shave? Be it covextivity or the degree of polish, the edge is not just simply sharp, there is more going on?

Yes I have always stated that sharp is sharp, period, an edge can only get so thin in theory between .38 -.48 microns that is "Sharp",,, So how smooth it feels, I think is up to the polish on the bevel.. and this is where these threads fall apart because we get to arguing about "Too sharp" which I do not think is a possibility, since almost all stones can get to that micron level there has to be something else going on that determines the "Smooth" part of the shave...
And maybe it is something so simple like Paul just said that some people's face like that hazy finish from a natural, instead of a bright mirror of the sythetics or in your case the smaller contact of the convex bevel...

Originally Posted by gssixgun

I agree to an extent that it is the sides of the bevel that create the comfort factor on an edge, but I don't think it is the shape I think it is the polish of those sides.. So in a way we agree that the more refined those sides are the better the blade feels on your face...

That is by far a better way to put it than I could properly relate. I come from the camp that the finer the abrasive the smoother the steel becomes and the better the shave. I have a 30K and is not the end of the process for me. I use 0.25 diamond paste........and finally I use a 0.1 micron diamond film and then 100 laps on the leather. There is a smoothness that is attained that I have never found by any other method or from any other person that has sent me a honed razor. It may be that they did not want to send a razor that I could hurt myself with, I do not know.

Take Care,
Richard

I'm starting to think that this whole thing is an enigma wrapped in a riddle shrouded in a mystery... At the end of the day, sharp and smooth is all that matters. Whatever forces are at work, it's awesome . You can't overstate the face factor, though IMO

Originally Posted by mainaman

From what I understand Naturals stones grit is more like discs rather than spheres , therefore making shallower scratch pattern thus giving the sandblasted look. I remember a bunch of threads made to report that convexing the bevel either with pasted strops or with leaving a bit of sag on the strop, indeed gives better shaving experience. In my experience only a few razors give very comfortable shave straight off the Nat finisher, most blades need to be finished on CrO or Diamond spray to feel as smooth as possibe.

and for you, this is consistant, correct? Each blade prepared this way always or at least almost always results in the comfort factor? I abandoned pastes long ago, but the results are surely almost the same for me with my method.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Yes I have always stated that sharp is sharp, period, an edge can only get so thin in theory between .38 -.48 microns that is "Sharp",,, So how smooth it feels, I think is up to the polish on the bevel.. and this is where these threads fall apart because we get to arguing about "Too sharp" which I do not think is a possibility, since almost all stones can get to that micron level there has to be something else going on that determines the "Smooth" part of the shave...
And maybe it is something so simple like Paul just said that some people's face like that hazy finish from a natural, instead of a bright mirror of the sythetics or in your case the smaller contact of the convex bevel...

Yes Glen, I have read multiple times where you mention "sharp is sharp" and now, finally, I really believe it. If you go for more is better, the edge factor becomes academic or falls apart. Interesting how we are all looking for the same thing, but finding different paths to getting there. Important factor as you said is the actual bevel itself given that honed edge and metal reach that .38 -.48 limit then the method of how we got there is ever so important as those methods impart other functional changes to bevel that we experience in the shave itself.

Originally Posted by richmondesi

I'm starting to think that this whole thing is an enigma wrapped in a riddle shrouded in a mystery... At the end of the day, sharp and smooth is all that matters. Whatever forces are at work, it's awesome . You can't overstate the face factor, though IMO

You know Paul, The part that can not be overstated is indeed the "riddle". How many people like myself get into this sport thinking we can sharpen as good as good as anyone else. If we are quiet enough and listen, we find out there is way more to honing than sharp itself. All of us know smooth when it is on our faces, ask how, and you can get several methods shrouded in Zen that work equally well. I for one hope that it will always remain a deep mystery that keeps us together always inspired and amazed, but one that results in a perfectly smooth shave

Originally Posted by Kingfish

and for you, this is consistant, correct? Each blade prepared this way always or at least almost always results in the comfort factor? I abandoned pastes long ago, but the results are surely almost the same for me with my method.

I always go from my Nat finisher to strop and test shave, if its needed then I do a few laps on CrO/Diamond until it feels best on my skin. I think resolving the mystery of each edge is what really separates the honemeisters from the rest of, they know what to do to get each razor to its best edge. If there was a single prescribed way we would have a forum full of honing gurus here