Thread: Proper activities for a first date w/ jnat

'Can't say how much I appreciate your kind help, Gents. It invaluable when wading into this strange world. - Chips on the stone: At the widest point, it takes up 1/4 of the width, and 1/2" on one end. On the most straight side, small humps that could easily be removed or smoothed. I hit the bumps while doing x-stroke and sometimes with circles. These can be fixed. Thank you! - Stone width dictate the x-stroke be done with the blade at about a 70 deg angle (30 deg from vertical). - Edges came to the asagi, already at shaving condition from the c12k, except for stropping. I tried one blade coming off the 8k naniwa, and the results weren't good - so I kept doing the c12k before asagi. Any section of the edge not shaving adequately sharp are brought in with circles. That this would be needed makes me question the quality of my stroke. I've been convinced of the edge quality needed from the 8k, so I think I could shave off the 8k with no trouble. When using the 12k as a finisher, I use a moderate slurry, as it seemed to smooth out the harshness and speed the cutting. Here, I've not used the slurry, thinking the asagi would address the harshness - which it seems to do. - Strokes are light. The only added pressure seems to be a small torsional/rotational pressure for the toe, which seems to need the pressure for consistent contact with the stone on a couple blades. As to 'ringing', I'm probably not as familiar with the indicators. Blades make ringing sound on the c12k also. I'm under the impression (rightly or wrongly) that the blade tempering makes for the ringing. There are probably details I'm not aware of here. - "As for the Sheffields I do very minimal strokes on my J-Nat finishers." Oz, THANK YOU! - "Does the stone release any slurry with water only?" Yes, though minimal. Alot of strokes and you see faint slurry. - So far, I'm surprised and a bit confused about the role of slurry for this particular stone. 'Best results have been with just water. Smoothness is there - including on blades that were ho hum previously. The Vom Cleff became a wonderful shaver. Would you think that continuing to exploit any slurry raised by the blade would bring further results as the slurry breaks down into finer particles? It may be that I have to perfect the edges of the stone to allow a respectable x-stroke before that question really comes into play. Again, Thank You both for your kind & patient help. It helps immeasurably in loosening the knots between my ears on getting the process down with this stone. I still marvel at the surface texture - like silk.

Originally Posted by pinklather

Edges came to the asagi, already at shaving condition from the c12k, except for stropping. I tried one blade coming off the 8k naniwa, and the results weren't good - so I kept doing the c12k before asagi. Any section of the edge not shaving adequately sharp are brought in with circles.
On the Asagi ??? It can't be that slow if it's cutting enough to alter sharpness.

As to 'ringing', I'm probably not as familiar with the indicators. Blades make ringing sound on the c12k also. I'm under the impression (rightly or wrongly) that the blade tempering makes for the ringing. Yes but also the grind. You won't hear of many singing wedges

So far, I'm surprised and a bit confused about the role of slurry for this particular stone. 'Best results have been with just water. Smoothness is there - including on blades that were ho hum previously. The Vom Cleff became a wonderful shaver. Would you think that continuing to exploit any slurry raised by the blade would bring further results as the slurry breaks down into finer particles?
You can only hone to a certain point & the blade will dictate how fine you can get so the answer could be both yes & no.

It may be that I have to perfect the edges of the stone to allow a respectable x-stroke before that question really comes into play.
That will help

Sounds like your having fun

A bit of time with the D8C 325 and I have 2 smooth side edges. One is 6" long, the other just shy of 4".

I also took another blade back to the stone after a concentrated effort at 8 & 12k. 'Didn't have enough beard (after a great shave w/ a formerly so-so razor) to fully test, but it seemed to be about the same as yesterday's water only finish (dang good, to be sure).

In the process, I started with much less water, and after about 30 strokes, could see some darkening of the slurry raised by the blade. I suspect I was obscuring some of the stone's feedback of color, etc by using too much slurry, too much water. So maybe it's not that slow?

So many confusing results. I feel foolish frequently. But I can't deny that it has improved every blade I have except one.

It's hard to face this, but I continue to get more keenness from circles than x-strokes. Both are very light - no pressure, but its sad to see that my stroke may have some repair work to do. I can typically do several x-strokes without degrading the keenness of the circles, but if I do 15-20 strokes, it has either gone downhill, or I'm confusing increased smoothness with a decrease in keenness. Maybe this is part of what Yamashita-san meant when he said a good stone will make you better at honing. Sigh. Back to basics to find the flaw and correct it.

On heavier grinds - you mentioned sort of a 'less is more' approach, and a preference for the coticule. Would this be true for the 1/4 grinds as well as the wedges? Riooso's edge on the 1/4 grind isn't that keen to the tpt, but the results are astounding. It's hard to separate out what is the blade and what is the edge finish. (it's a breathtaking Williams blade) It sort of adds fuel to the issue of maybe confusing increased smoothness with decreased keenness. That blade takes more forward force to initiate a stroke, but underway, no more than any other, and the result is a cleaner, closer swath cut than anything else in the drawer.

Yamashita-san didn't say that becoming better at honing would be easy

Again, Your help is so much appreciated.

you can raise slurry on the stone with your razor?
Are you sure you are not talking about swarf?

Hello Stefan. And thank you for looking at the noob flailing his way into a first jnat.

My understanding of swarf is that it's powder fine slurry composed of tiny metal bits produced by abrasion. When I backed way off on the amount of water I was using, I could see swarf. When I used more water, I could see the appearance of a white, milky substance that I'm thinking is slurry from the stone itself. I see both now when I use very little water.

Any thoughts you have on the experimentation/testing is very very much appreciated.

Originally Posted by pinklather

Hello Stefan. And thank you for looking at the noob flailing his way into a first jnat.

My understanding of swarf is that it's powder fine slurry composed of tiny metal bits produced by abrasion. When I backed way off on the amount of water I was using, I could see swarf. When I used more water, I could see the appearance of a white, milky substance that I'm thinking is slurry from the stone itself. I see both now when I use very little water.

Any thoughts you have on the experimentation/testing is very very much appreciated.

Ok,
I was not sure, I have never seen auto slurry even from a soft stone, yours must be very soft.

That's really odd. The only way So would send a soft stone for razors is if he had a dozen on the table & put the wrong one in your parcel How much slurry we talkin about pinkl ? Clouds of the stuff or a just a slight colour change of the water sitting on the razor ?

Originally Posted by pinklather

On heavier grinds - you mentioned sort of a 'less is more' approach, and a preference for the coticule. Would this be true for the 1/4 grinds as well as the wedges? Riooso's edge on the 1/4 grind isn't that keen to the tpt, but the results are astounding. It's hard to separate out what is the blade and what is the edge finish. (it's a breathtaking Williams blade) It sort of adds fuel to the issue of maybe confusing increased smoothness with decreased keenness. That blade takes more forward force to initiate a stroke, but underway, no more than any other, and the result is a cleaner, closer swath cut than anything else in the drawer.

No,no not all heavier grinds, I just meant the old Sheffields. I imagine there may be other J-Nats out there that work fine on them just not my J-Nats.

Originally Posted by onimaru55

No,no not all heavier grinds, I just meant the old Sheffields. I imagine there may be other J-Nats out there that work fine on them just not my J-Nats.

How hard are your Jnats Oz?
I have one extremely hard that does not absorb water at all, it works great on sheffields, and solingens.

Originally Posted by onimaru55

How much slurry we talkin about pinkl ? Clouds of the stuff or a just a slight colour change of the water sitting on the razor ?

No,no not all heavier grinds, I just meant the old Sheffields. I imagine there may be other J-Nats out there that work fine on them just not my J-Nats.

I'd say the first 4 blades had clouds and alot of water. In hindsight, I think this was a mistake, and after a couple attempts at a lighter slurry (still w/ too much water), I went to (too much) water only. And it worked! Well! Last night, I drastically reduced the water, at which time I could notice the creation of the swarf. During the too much water stage, I could see some slurry cloud the water faintly. It certainly opens the possibility that I'm full of fertilizer as to the stone's hardness. 'Wouldn't be the first time, won't be the last.

It was instructional to go back and try the tpt on the edge Richard put on the Williams. (note: I mentioned I wanted smooth most - and he said it may feel less keen. He delivered what I had asked for - and it delivered smoothness I've never known) What I've thought was 'not very keen' was about like that edge. With water only (Richard's preferred final laps) strong keenness was there, and the smoothness was too. 'Makes me rethink impressions of the keenness.

The revised edges of the stone help alot, but there's nicks in the edges of the stone that could only be removed by losing a fair amount of width. Circles continue to give the most keenness, though I follow with 2-4 x-strokes with no probs. What to me feels like it approaches the feel of the 30k shapton edge I tried from the Honorable Sixgunner (Glen), remains insanely smooth. That's what really caught my attention on a previously ho-hum blade. It seems that no blade that rides this rock is capable of harsh. I'm sure if there's a way to make an error and produce harshness, I'll find it.

'About to go test shave w/ the only blade who's shave rivals the williams - the beloved 1/4 grind wacker that got a fresh ride on the rock last night. I'm expecting this to be incredible.

update: edge on the wacker delivered a very very satisfying shave. The main difference from previous edges is that it's more vegetarian. 'Cuts extremely well w/ no pressure, just seems to go to great lengths to avoid any nicks or weepers. 'Very very pleasing. 'Seems each blade done on the asagi gives similar smoothness (I love it). They don't seem to test HHT as well, but I don't care, the shaves are outstanding. Also, like the Williams, each blade can keep cutting with unusually wide blade angles. WTG of 70 deg is not hard on easier sections. ATG of 30+ is not undoable, even in heavier growth. 'Odd, but consistent. Both the Williams and the wacker are 1/4 grinds. Full hollows enjoy a similar behavior, though not quite as pronounced.

Gents, your help is invaluable. I'm grateful for the education. Hope I'm able to be of help in similar fashion.

Originally Posted by mainaman

How hard are your Jnats Oz?
I have one extremely hard that does not absorb water at all, it works great on sheffields, and solingens.

I've seen a few harder Asagi but not many. Water just sits on my Asagi for ages. I'd say its very hard but very fast for its fineness. My Suita is more absorbent & a more aggressive cutter. I'm sure I didn't explain properly but the issue is more to do with my mid stages of honing than the finisher. I normally use the Shapton GS stones up to 8k & then a very fast Suita followed by the Asagi. Works great with razors on the hard side but in my hands the softer tempered Sheffields just seem to do better on the Coti after 8k. I do use my J-Nats after that but as I said before very minimally.
Apologies to pinklather if I've strayed off topic here.

Originally Posted by pinklather

I'd say the first 4 blades had clouds and alot of water. In hindsight, I think this was a mistake, and after a couple attempts at a lighter slurry (still w/ too much water), I went to (too much) water only. And it worked! Well! Last night, I drastically reduced the water, at which time I could notice the creation of the swarf. During the too much water stage, I could see some slurry cloud the water faintly. It certainly opens the possibility that I'm full of fertilizer as to the stone's hardness. 'Wouldn't be the first time, won't be the last.
I & I'm sure others thought it was odd you were getting so much auto slurry but IIRC you are doing more than just 10-15 finishing strokes

It was instructional to go back and try the tpt on the edge Richard put on the Williams. (note: I mentioned I wanted smooth most - and he said it may feel less keen.
That is the illusion. Move that razor even slightly sideways & you'll see how sharp it is
He delivered what I had asked for - and it delivered smoothness I've never known) What I've thought was 'not very keen' was about like that edge. With water only (Richard's preferred final laps) strong keenness was there, and the smoothness was too. 'Makes me rethink impressions of the keenness.

The revised edges of the stone help alot, but there's nicks in the edges of the stone that could only be removed by losing a fair amount of width. Circles continue to give the most keenness, though I follow with 2-4 x-strokes with no probs. What to me feels like it approaches the feel of the 30k shapton edge I tried from the Honorable Sixgunner (Glen), remains insanely smooth. That's what really caught my attention on a previously ho-hum blade. It seems that no blade that rides this rock is capable of harsh. I'm sure if there's a way to make an error and produce harshness, I'll find it.
Any pics of these nicks. Well ok, really I just wanna see the stone

'About to go test shave w/ the only blade who's shave rivals the williams - the beloved 1/4 grind wacker that got a fresh ride on the rock last night. I'm expecting this to be incredible.

update: edge on the wacker delivered a very very satisfying shave. The main difference from previous edges is that it's more vegetarian. 'Cuts extremely well w/ no pressure, just seems to go to great lengths to avoid any nicks or weepers. 'Very very pleasing. 'Seems each blade done on the asagi gives similar smoothness (I love it). They don't seem to test HHT as well, but I don't care, the shaves are outstanding. Also, like the Williams, each blade can keep cutting with unusually wide blade angles. WTG of 70 deg is not hard on easier sections. ATG of 30+ is not undoable, even in heavier growth. 'Odd, but consistent. Both the Williams and the wacker are 1/4 grinds. Full hollows enjoy a similar behavior, though not quite as pronounced.
Sounds like a cool stone but also your use of it is crucial too so congrats on both

Gents, your help is invaluable. I'm grateful for the education. Hope I'm able to be of help in similar fashion.

Did I say we need pics ?