Thread: Looks like the Heartsteel website is up....

Originally Posted by McWolf1969

+1 to seeing an american straight razor, being made again.
Are these carbon or stainless steel?

Mac

I believe they are carbon. Someone said 01.

Like Jimmy said, these razors will stand or fall based on reviews of actual users. I regard razor reviews of fellow members here very highly. I will refrain from passing judgement on these Hart razors until they're actually used and reported on. I also like the simplicity I see. The concept is exciting and I do hope it turns out well.

If I had the money (seems to be a reoccurring theme amongst us at the moment, eh?) I would buy one.

Chris L

Here are my thoughts:

1) If I were to found the first American razor company in a long time, I wouldn't name it Deer Steel, especially not using the GERMAN word for deer. That to me is simply Ironic.

2) On B&B they were "leaked" a week ahead of time with a glowing review ten pages long. Here's my thought. From practice and research it seems that if the steel is good and the temper is good 99% of the quality comes down to how it was honed.

3) These are marketed as a "test run" and "very simplistic"- I shudder to think what the equivalent would be of say, the Dovo BL. $800? Might as well just buy a custom.

4) What is the selling point of these razors? One can buy a Dovo for $60, so its not an entry shaver. One can get a mint Torrey for less than $250, so it won't replace vintages. On that note one can easily buy vintage made-in-america blades so it doesn't even own that niche. One of my main everyday shavers is 1/4 hollow, matte finish, with plain plastic scales and it cost $15, so its not a work horse.

5) Quite frankly, if you asked one of the custom-makers to knock out something similar using 1-piece pre-made scales with a screw at the pin, I'm pretty sure the tab would be at or less than $250.

I don't need to wait for a review, I know that they will take great edges and shave well. Is it worth $250 to buy a razor that isn't polished, has boring mass-fabricated scales, and a screw no less? Maybe. Not to me. If I want a blade made in America I'll track down an NOS Torrey 999 with MOP tang and cracked ice, like the one that just sold for $60 on the bay J.R. Torrey Vintage MOP Tang Straight Razor-Mint! - eBay (item 140344695323 end time Sep-14-09 19:41:17 PDT) or maybe a nice Green Lizard, for $45 on the bay CATTARAUGUS CUTLERY CO.GREEN LIZARD STRAIGHT RAZOR - eBay (item 390087236354 end time Sep-26-09 18:50:11 PDT).

To me this seems like a BLATANT rip off.
"The one piece silicon scales have a simple elegance and are extremely durable while providing an excellent balance to the razor's edge." translation: "Silicon is easily injection molded and thus can be made quickly, easily, and at low cost. Durability is a bonus because it is basically rubber. We'll tell you it balances the edge because it sounds poetic, even though it doesn't make physical or grammatical sense."
"The scales are attached by a hex screw so the user can easily adjust, tighten or loosen to his preference as well as re-scale the razor using the provided hex wrench." translation: "It's easier for us to manufacture razors with a screw instead of pins and we can easily spin it as an improvement."

I know they have a bottom line to meet, but while a screw is convenient for us, it is very convenient for them. To me, that seems like a point where they could cut their costs, and ours as consumers. Same with the scales. This is an example where if they made it cheaper AND better, they'd do well, but instead they are making it more expensive and to me that just reeks of profit margin. On a $250 razor, rubber (silicon is basically rubber/plastic) seems cheap to me, I dunno about you, and the screw isn't much better. On a $40 practical razor, I would buy it in an instant. Instead, I'd take my $250, buy a Dovo Classic 6/8s half hollow, and spend the remaining $180 on beer and cheap vodka to fuel our frat parties. Here it is: Vintage*Blades*LLC*::*Dovo... It even boasts jimps- missing from the hartsteel.

I'm not bashing the workmanship. I'm bashing the price point. I think the case is not "If I had the money" its more "If the price were more reasonable for what I'm getting for my money".

Wow, what an unnecessarily vitriolic rant...

Originally Posted by khaos

Here are my thoughts:

1) If I were to found the first American razor company in a long time, I wouldn't name it Deer Steel, especially not using the GERMAN word for deer. That to me is simply Ironic.

The German word for deer is not hart, it's Hirsch. The ENGLISH word for deer is "Hart".

Haven't you ever read Robin Hood?

And...what's wrong with the name, anyway?

Originally Posted by khaos

2) On B&B they were "leaked" a week ahead of time with a glowing review ten pages long. Here's my thought. From practice and research it seems that if the steel is good and the temper is good 99% of the quality comes down to how it was honed.

What that means is that the choice of steel, the tempering and forging and honing were all great. Which is not worth money? Training people to grind razors doesn't cost money? Quality doesn't cost money?

Originally Posted by khaos

3) These are marketed as a "test run" and "very simplistic"- I shudder to think what the equivalent would be of say, the Dovo BL. $800? Might as well just buy a custom.

Indeed, there's no history of companies streamlining their processes, working out bugs and LOWERING prices...

Originally Posted by khaos

To me this seems like a BLATANT rip off.

Indeed. Reviving a trade and skill that has heretofore been lost to America is certainly a huge rip-off. God forbid that people be asked to pay for the time and effort of training new grinders making well-made, hand-forged tools.

The thing you are forgetting is, DOVO is mass producing these razors to designs they've had for years. Starting from scratch is ALWAYS more expensive than doing what you've always done.

You pay for skill. You pay for quality. If both those things are evident in a product, why on earth should it be cheap?

Originally Posted by JimR

Wow, what an unnecessarily vitriolic rant...
The German word for deer is not hart, it's Hirsch. The ENGLISH word for deer is "Hart".

Haven't you ever read Robin Hood?

And...what's wrong with the name, anyway?

I''m sorry you're right. I was mostly caught up in it not being AMERICAN. Like, if its the first American razor in a long time, shouldn't it be true blue? And no I have not read Robin Hood

What that means is that the choice of steel, the tempering and forging and honing were all great. Which is not worth money? Training people to grind razors doesn't cost money? Quality doesn't cost money?

I agree quality costs money. $250 worth?

Indeed, there's no history of companies streamlining their processes, working out bugs and LOWERING prices...

Indeed. Reviving a trade and skill that has heretofore been lost to America is certainly a huge rip-off. God forbid that people be asked to pay for the time and effort of training new grinders making well-made, hand-forged tools.

The thing you are forgetting is, DOVO is mass producing these razors to designs they've had for years. Starting from scratch is ALWAYS more expensive than doing what you've always done.

You pay for skill. You pay for quality. If both those things are evident in a product, why on earth should it be cheap?

There's an economic principle called supply and demand. If they charge $250 and sell three razors, they only make $750. If they charge $50 yet sell 50 razors, they make $2500.

Training, capital and such is a sunk cost- no matter what they sell the good for, they had to pay the same for that. The materials and time it takes to make one determines the profit margin. Making ten razors will cost say, $1000 in training, $1000 in capital, and say, 10 times $20 in materials and labour. For $2200. Making 30 razors will cost the same $1000 in training and the same $1000 in capital, but 30 times $20 in materials and labour for a total of $2600. Once the people are trained and the tools and jig and stuff are bought, the only economic determinant is the cost of raw material and labour, because whether you make one razor or 100 razors, you still need the same tools and training.... Selling 10 razors at $250 will profit them $300, Selling 30 at $100 will profit them $400. See? Its intro micro economics. If you scale it up even more, to say, 100 razors, its the $1000 for training, $1000 for capital, then 100 times $20 in materials and labour for a total of $4000. Sold at $50 bucks a pop, thats a profit of $1000! Thats my argument. Of course I made up all the numbers, but I'm just trying to prove a point.

They already have all the tools, all the training, etc. Thats all already invested. How many people here have said they want one but can't afford it? Those are all lost sales....

edit:

You pay for skill. You pay for quality. If both those things are evident in a product, why on earth should it be cheap?

half of my rant is basically that I'm not really seeing any special skill or quality evident here... basic scales screwed onto a basic razor? For $250? The craftsman ship I'm sure is top notch, I said that originally. I have no doubt it will take an amazing edge and be a great shaver. But what makes this $250 razor better than the Dovo Classic I can buy that is basically the same but less than a third the price? THAT's MY POINT.

to continue, part of the cost here is the cost of getting venture capital,

First, you find investors. I don't think any of the principles here have lot of cash they can afford to risk in a new start up. This means that they had to get a loan.

Even with the new government initiatives, loans for new ventures are hard to come by. Add to that, the fact that there aren't too many parallels for a new start up razor makers without being part of a larger enterprise in recent times. You also have to overcome biases on the part of the bankers to convince them that there is a market for the razors.

They probably had trouble getting a loan at a decent rate.

Venture capitol bankers require that your business plan has you breaking even in 4 years. You have to price your product accordingly.

You can price your product at $50 but, if it costs you $40 to make, selling 50 only nets you $500.

How much were the blanks from Butch Harner?

I don't know much about marketing, but if they choose a price point too low, they risk being seen as a low quality item. I think they're shooting for a market that wants a custom but can't afford it. And that's where there price point is. It may not be as pretty as some razors, but I think their quality control is going to be excellent. I don't own a Dovo but I've read numerous times on this forum that people have received Dovos with warped blades. I'm not picking on Dovo, I've also read that many manufactures have produced warped blades. My point is, the individuals making the razors put their mark on the tang. I don't think they're going to let a warped blade go out the door. I think the company is saying, here's a high quality razor, almost custom, we've kept the price down by adding inexpensive scales and a satin finish on the blade. I think all it will take is a few people saying, "This is the greatest shave ever." and they'll be selling like hotcakes.

I'm not going to run out and buy one anytime soon with biz being a bit slow but one thing I notice is the level of workmanship they say they are putting into this.

When you buy a current production Dovo or TI or what have you they are generally well made but they aren't guaranteed to be perfectly ground with the spine/edge being absolutely straight as is the Hart razor.

They don't have the initials of the individual who made the razor from start to finish stamped on the tang. Just the fact that one individual is making the razor gives it something of a custom flair.

Figure to pay $20.00 for pre sharpening on any razor so subtract that from the total and honed on a vintage Escher no less. If they do everything they say they are going to do then I think it isn't an unfair price.

What a dollar will buy goes down from year to year. In 1968 journeyman's scale for a union ironworker in my local was $5.45 an hour and that was big money. Most unskilled labor worked for less than $1.00 an hour in those days.

I've read that in terms of age 60 is the new 40 ...... well in terms of money $100.00 is the new $10.00 so compute the cost of anything with that and you'll get a truer measure of value for your money. At least from the perspective of a 60 year old who paid $0.30 for a quart of milk, a pack of Camels with no filters or a gallon of gasoline.

Classicshaving describes the production process and is selling them at 240 dollars.

I have to agree with most comments here. Doubt most people will buy it over a TI or Livi at about the same price point.

But good luck to them.

Whew, from review, to questions, to vexation, to firestorm, to chaos. Ya gotta love it.

I've ordered one of the Hartsteel razors just to see what all the fuss is about. If the razor is a good shaver, and I think it will be, I wish the new company every success. As for the cost, it seems to be in the ballpark for many of the newer upper end production razors and is almost a price match for another handmade razor which I ordered several months ago and which I think may actually be underpriced. It will be very interesting to compare quality of manufacture when I can look at the 2 side by side.

...yet another episode from the tales of the testy brotherhood of the micron edge, hmm...