Thread: What is wrong with those sellers?

Originally Posted by dave5225

Yes , but it's a "3 pin" , and it has a fancy tang . Maybe the seller forgot to put the decimal point in the price .

1200 Yen perhaps??

Originally Posted by Snake

Wouldn't you feel there's something wrong if you pull up to the gas station and the seller (of gas) wants $45 for a gallon? I mean, by your logic, he's just trying to get as much as he possibly can for his item/product. Or what about that nice flat screen at Sears? Wouldn't something be awfully wrong if they priced it at $35,000? No?

Actually all these scenarios would be perfectly fine with me. If the gas station and Sears were the only ones to have a gallon of gas and that big shiny flat screen and you really wanted them enough you'd probably buy them provided you have the money to do so.

Originally Posted by Snake

They are either incredibly naive and clueless, or they are fishing for a fool to pay that and set a precedent. Every time someone pays more than a razor is worth, it drives the prices of all other razors. For no good reason other than "someone is willing to pay". And I feel there's something intrinsically wrong with that.

What about the other side of the coin - when somebody sells a razor for less than what's worth and that brings the prices of everything down? If you don't think it happens take a look at the completed auctions and you'll find razors in excellent condition that have sold for less than 50% of what they sell brand new (often only to be flipped right away on ebay or the shaving forums for a nice profit).


I think your mistake is in presuming there is an intrinsic value in a razor. The problem is that you have no idea what that value may be (e.g. how much the seller spent to obtain the razor and then that won't have anything to do with the intrinsic value of another similar one from another seller) so it is impossible to assign any particular number to how much should the razor cost.

Do you not buy technology because the entities who designed it and brought it to you captured 80%-90% of what you paid and the actual manufacturing cost was no more than 20%?

The point is that when it takes an agreement between the buyer and the seller, there is a distribution of buying/selling transactions. But it's difficult to assign a point beyond which you can label people as 'fools'. Would it be if they overpaid by 1% over the mean, or 10%, or 50%, or 100%, or 500%? Any number you pick you'll have a consistency problem, because in a similar market the distribution is different.

Once you accept that the prices are determined by supply and demand and in order for a transaction to occur there need to be both a buyer and a seller agreeing that the price is fair, then you have to accept that there will be an average, above the average, below the average, and well above and well below the average too.

I personally am not going to buy this particular razor. I already have at least half a dozen pumas that are in far better condition, and I've paid for every single one of them more than the cost of a high end brand new razor (and significantly less than this seller's asking price). I even had a nicer version of this one which I sold a year or two ago for much less than I could sell now.

But at the end of the day I think the seller has the right to ask any amount he wants because the buyers also have the right and the responsibility to spend their own money any way they please.
If the seller doesn't find a buyer then he's being punished by having wasted his time and also probably having to pay ebay 50 cents.

Originally Posted by Sailor

Actually it is sad. If the prices of the hype brands are getting that high, then other brands will follow, at least for some.

Or not. If the shaving forums don't create Chronics there is no reason that new people would be looking for the latest must have.
I think the prices are going up primarily because the rate of increase of people looking for old razors is higher than the rate of increase in the supply of such razors.

I can buy old razors that are at least as good as the pumas for much less, but only because I haven't participated in creating a hype around those other brands, so the pool of people wanting them is smaller.

Gugi,

It seems we are locked at different ends of the spectrum. I would actually enjoy having this discussion over a drink and a cigar where the nuances of debate are available and not harshened by the printed word. It's one of those issues that has enough shades to make interesting debate.

There are two things I want to state; I have no animosity, either towards the messenger or the message. Also I believe that at the end someone is right and someone is wrong.

On to my reply.

Actually all these scenarios would be perfectly fine with me. If the gas station and Sears were the only ones to have a gallon of gas and that big shiny flat screen and you really wanted them enough you'd probably buy them provided you have the money to do so.

As later you indicate, he's not holding the only one in the world of these razors, but just one. If you went to Sears and the TV were $35K, you'd drive to best buy and pick one up for $750. I'll concede that retail is not the same as the second hand market, but it illustrates my point clearly enough, I think.

What about the other side of the coin - when somebody sells a razor for less than what's worth and that brings the prices of everything down? If you don't think it happens take a look at the completed auctions and you'll find razors in excellent condition that have sold for less than 50% of what they sell brand new (often only to be flipped right away on ebay or the shaving forums for a nice profit).

This does not apply. One cheaply sold razor does not make all sellers immediately drop the prices. I'm still to find the honest man that in auction will stop you from overpaying, although you can see all over that particular auction place sellers pointing out similar items that sold for a ton of money.

IOW:

Buyer: "this price is outrageous"
Seller: "go pound sand, here's another one just like it that sold for as much as I'm asking"

These merchants that pick up one cheaper than the going price are, by your indication, flipping them for the going (or better) price have no bearing on all of us who are not in the business of buying and selling razors are getting screwed out of the opportunity of owning one. The way it's going, I'll never own a Filarmonica - the same way I will probably never own a Mastro Livi.

I think your mistake is in presuming there is an intrinsic value in a razor. The problem is that you have no idea what that value may be (e.g. how much the seller spent to obtain the razor and then that won't have anything to do with the intrinsic value of another similar one from another seller) so it is impossible to assign any particular number to how much should the razor cost.

There is intrinsic value in a razor. You can shave with it, that's tangible value. There is no intrinsic value in a picture by Ansel Adams (yet I'd love to own one.)

And you are confusing the value of the razor with the cost to the seller. Those two are unrelated. If I overpay for something it doesn't entitle me to overcharge to offset my poor decisions.

Regardless of the hoops the current owner cleared to have the item on hand, the value of the item is unaffected. If I choose to fly a courier to Colombia to buy a pound of coffee and bring it back, it won't change that a pound of coffee is still $23 bucks, and certainly it won't justify trying to charge $2k to offset my costs. Unless it's the last pound of coffee in the world. Which, just like the razor, it isn't.

The value of other like razors directly impacts how much this razor will be worth, supply and demand notwithstanding. Which is kind of the whole point here, isn't it? If like razors go for a couple of hundreds it is irrational to expect to sell this one for five times the price.

Do you not buy technology because the entities who designed it and brought it to you captured 80%-90% of what you paid and the actual manufacturing cost was no more than 20%?

I feel this is a cheap shot in my part, and I beg your forgiveness for it. I know a little about manufacturing, having worked in a manufacturing company. The numbers you quote (the manufacturing cost of an electronics item is roughly 20% of the retail price, sometimes less) are correct. However, that is not the cost of the item. To that you have to add the engineering that went into the design of that particular item, the electronics licenses, the packaging engineering, boxing, tech writing, logistic costs and retailer markup. The manufacturer does not get the price you pay, there's a significant gain for the retailer, the margin, and generally the gross profit is roughly 25% to 30%. And that's before paying for warehousing, and commissions to the brave guys that peddle the stuff and the guys like me that run their ERM systems that run their operations.

And no, I don't buy technology because it gives the manufacturer a profit; like everything I buy, I buy it for it's value to me. I can choose a Sony top of the line player that will play anything short of a ham sandwich I put into it... and pay $5,000 for the privilege. Actually, I chose a Sony DVD player for $40. It plays DVD and nothing more. Great value.

<snip>
...it's difficult to assign a point beyond which you can label people as 'fools'. Would it be if they overpaid by 1% over the mean, or 10%, or 50%, or 100%, or 500%? Any number you pick you'll have a consistency problem, because in a similar market the distribution is different.

No it's not. I would say that right around 10% and up you are a fool. Unless you are one, why would you willingly or unknowingly overpay? It has nothing to do with market distribution, in particular when it applies to online auctions that have global reach.

10% over and you are paying premium... anything over that and it's just foolishness. And there is no consistency problem. Fools tend to be very consistent and determined.

Once you accept that the prices are determined by supply and demand and in order for a transaction to occur there need to be both a buyer and a seller agreeing that the price is fair, then you have to accept that there will be an average, above the average, below the average, and well above and well below the average too.

I'm already in acceptance that the prices are the result of supply and demand, and there's no argument that there's a median price, and then there are above and below (assuming we are talking about similar items.) You don't need much more proof than to look at certain razor prices and what they've done over the last year, the Puma included. Lots of people want Dubl Ducks, and there are only so many to go around. Prices are driven up. From about $50 to $70 they have gone to $300 and more just in the year I've been lurking here. Or Filarmonicas, or whatever will be the razor d'jour next week.

Let me posit this another way... do you think it's right for, say, Home Depot or Lowes to double the snow blower prices during a storm?

The name of this practice is called gouging, and it's not far from what some sellers are doing by artificially driving up prices.

This, however, has no relevance on the issue at hand, except to illustrate how grossly overpriced this particular razor is. And how totally screwed we are as enthusiasts when it comes to certain razors that pretty soon we won't be able to dream of having.

If this guy gets away with this, and then a few more and the Pumas shoot up to $750 average price... would you be able to acquire a nice collection of them then? Certainly I won't be able to own any. Within a certain range I get the impression that most here are working folk like me and we are getting shut out of this game by borderline immoral practices like this one.

And that, my friend, is why this is wrong.

Originally Posted by Snake

I would actually enjoy having this discussion over a drink and a cigar where the nuances of debate are available and not harshened by the printed word.

Well that may happen sooner or later, we're something like 4h away and there are meetings going all year round. I, however, do better with booze than cigars, though I liked the last one I had (courtesy of Lynn&Don at one of the srp meets)

I didn't think you'll take anything as anything other than arguing the case, since you seem laid back and reasonable, anyways.

So, you see with all the examples you're confirming the same things
(1) the asking price doesn't force the buyer to pay it - they can either find a cheaper price, or just do without (sears tv).
(2) sellers are interested in getting as much and buyers in paying as little as they can (seller referencing the highest price paid)
(3) no set intrinsic value - if it's that the razor can shave then gold dollar razors can be made to shave and cost under $2 from the factory. The cost to the seller was just to put something that the seller does so that you can justify price > $0. E.g. if the seller makes a living from finding and selling old stuff they have to either make enough to pay their living expenses or they will disappear. At the end of the day the supply side is just as necessary as the demand.
(4) you didn't specify how to determine the value of a razor, but you seem to assert that there is one, established precisely with +/-10% tolerance. This really is the most important part of the argument - how do you determine that value.
(5) you agree that the prices are set by supply and demand, but if you look at the ebay history you will see that the 10% spread is wishful thinking. From what I've seen the reality is 100%, may be more. I mean let's take the most abundant razor W&B, what is the median price for a 6/8 hollow (re)ground, horn scales with some chips, tarnish/pitting on the blade, 1/16 to 1/8 flattening on the spine. I would estimate that not even 10% of the razors sell within 10% of that price, so 90% of the buyers are fools (of course I will probably argue that 100% of them are since those razors are not worth to me the average )


The manufacturing is interesting - yes there is the engineering and the retail chain cost, but that only reflects that the engineers and managers have much higher standard of living than the machine operators. Otherwise they all put in not too different amount of work hours, but one type of labor is valued at huge premium over another. And this is so mostly entirely due to market forces, which was the pont I'm coming back to.

As far as floating prices I think it's alright too. Suppose the prices were flat. I don't think that the buyers will go and buy snowblowers in the summer, just because they'll need it later on, they'd rather keep the money in the bank collecting interest and spend it when they need the machine after the storm. Meanwhile the seller has to keep their money tied up in inventory and maintaining it. (Hypothetical of course we know it's a bit more complicated but this captures the main features.)
So if the buyer doesn't value a snowblower in the summer or before the storm the same way they value it after the snowstorm, why woud the seller be expected to value it differently? And if the buyer values it the same in the summer, but the seller doesn't the buyer can take advantage of this and pay substantially less stocking up off-season.
This could be called price gouging or it could be called poor planning, it seems that it depends mostly on which side does the calling.


So what does this all have to do with razors? There are plenty of brand new factory razors that can be had day and night for $80-$200 and up at any number of vendors. So, when somebody goes on ebay they either (1) think those $100-$200 razors are overpriced and want something of better value, (2) are willing to sacrifice a bit of quality for a lower price, or (3) want better 'quality' (however they define it) and thus should be prepared to pay a premium for it.

Since I don't see how any of these ebay razors has any intrinsic value, other than what the buyer and seller subjectively attribute to it, I think the only way to decide on what is a good price for a razor is to just leave the free market do it. A seller gets to ask anything they want, and the buyer gets to pay, or not pay it. If the majority of the buyers are stupid and pay way more than they should then the smart buyers will have to just accept this is not the market for them and stick to the current production razors where the prices are set similarly to the prices of toasters. At the end of the day if there are not enough wonderedges for every straight shaver at the price they're willing to pay for one, I guess shaving with a wonderedge just isn't something they want all that much.

Or they can pay the exorbitant price, try the razors to know if it's worth to them and resell it right back.

Anyways, it's getting way too late and my glass is empty, so I better go get some sleep.

And you're welcome to borrow and try a couple of my razors that you can't afford on ebay.

Holy cats you fellers are using a lot of words to make simple points...

I'm with Gugi. The seller can choose to charge as much or as little as they want. I can choose to pay or not pay. If you were to graph a demand curve you'll find that some people are perfectly willing to pay an inflated price, but not many.

As a seller you can choose to list high and possibly wait a long time to come across the right buyer, or you can price your item closer to the equilibrium of the market and sell your item relatively quickly.

The choices that everyone has are what make the FREE market so wonderful.

Originally Posted by HNSB

Holy cats you fellers are using a lot of words to make simple points...

duh, this whiskey doesn't drink itself, words help it go down smoother

Ah.
Stay thirsty, my friend.

The price is weird as this seller usually starts auctions at a $20 starting price, or has BIN at the upper end of the items worth (but certainly not outrageous).

I will say one thing though, I recently bought 2 razors from this seller and the shipping was impressive. 5 days from Japan. Both razors I bought were in mint condition (a Diamond Hayashi 120 1/4 hollow and a Youth Japanese Western 1/4 hollow as well).

He has a number of nice razors recently and I would not hesitate to buy from again. Not paying $1200 for a puma, but then again he may be testing the waters. He always relists razors that don't sell, so it will be interesting to see what he relists this one as.

The market will ultimately determine price regardless of what the seller may ask. I buy automobiles at auction as a part of my job. This makes Ebay seem pretty tame. Buyers often try to get well above market but it takes willing buyers in order for this to work. At some point the seller must adjust his thinking if he wishes to sell his item.