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Thread: Is this still useable?

  1. #31
    At this point in time... gssixgun's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=MJC;1009195]I may have a case....
    Bought this Crown & Sword pair that came in the mail today.
    They look ok but:
    The scales are slightly warped and appear to have "shrunk" - its a very tight fit.
    This discoloratoin pattern is present, mostly behind the scales but its very light and seem to clean/buff with Autosol
    No scent of vinegar.

    Opinion?

    I have to agree with Stimpy, Clean and Watch, it doesn't look like corrosion from off gassing in the pic, but like I said above the insidious nature of Cellrot is it doesn't present the same because of all the different formulas...

    Clean it up and put it in a baggy (no oil), check it every day for a week without opening the baggy and see what happens is my 2 cents

  2. #32
    Senior Member maddafinga's Avatar
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    A couple of good questions and answers and this has turned into a fantastic and informative thread! Thanks gentlemen!

  3. #33
    MJC
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    [QUOTE=gssixgun;1009229]
    Quote Originally Posted by MJC View Post
    I may have a case....
    Bought this Crown & Sword pair that came in the mail today.
    They look ok but:
    The scales are slightly warped and appear to have "shrunk" - its a very tight fit.
    This discoloratoin pattern is present, mostly behind the scales but its very light and seem to clean/buff with Autosol
    No scent of vinegar.

    Opinion?

    I have to agree with Stimpy, Clean and Watch, it doesn't look like corrosion from off gassing in the pic, but like I said above the insidious nature of Cellrot is it doesn't present the same because of all the different formulas...

    Clean it up and put it in a baggy (no oil), check it every day for a week without opening the baggy and see what happens is my 2 cents
    Along with your and Stimpy's comments I had a light bulb moment when I was doing an errand. The reason that the end of the razor strikes on the wedge and jams in because the scales have begun to shrink. The light bulb moment was when I remembered the picture of Wullie's Case pocket knife, and the gaps at the bolsters.
    Of the two razors the one with the tightest fit seems to have the worse spotting, which is not bad but under a 10x loupe you can see some scars (it had been cleaned by others?)

    I believe that this is the start or early stages of Cellrot. Since they are going to have to be be re-scaled anyway I'm leaning towards removing the scales and putting them in a baggy. At this point the bevel looks good and there is no pitting near it.

    Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you...

    And thanks again for the thread and all of the great information, its been kind of a too-daa-doo-daa series for me. Imagine my surprise when I opened this box today...
    Last edited by MJC; 08-18-2012 at 01:54 AM. Reason: and thank you.

  4. #34
    wai
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    This thread has brought out the hyperchondriac in me...

    Time to ID all the celluloid scales and isolate em...
    tiddle likes this.

  5. #35
    Senior Member blabbermouth
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    I thought it might be useful to make an update of the info I posted quite some time ago on the subject of cell rot, bringing everything together in one place:

    Celluloid

    Celluloid is of two main types - celluloid nitrate or celluloid acetate.

    Celluloid was the first synthetic plastic produced in 1869. It was pre-dated by an earlier form of celluloid called Parkesine after its inventor, Alexander Parkes, in 1855. The inventor of what we know as 'celluloid'- John Wesley Hyatt - was looking for an ivory substitute, particularly for billiard balls. He found an ivory substitute consisting of cellulose nitrate and camphor in 1870, called the product Celluloid and marketed the balls in 1872, with disastrous results - the balls tended to explode when they collided!

    A man who had worked alongside Alexander Parkes - Daniel Spill - had formed the Xylonite Company prior to Hyatts company and went to court in 1877 to challenge Hyatt. The judge found in Spills favour, but the case came up again in 1884 and the judge allowed both Parkes and Hyatt to manufacture celluloid (or as Spills continued to call it, Xylonite).

    The reason for celluloids explosive nature is because its origins lie in the nitration of cotton. Nitrated cotton is another word for guncotton, formed by steeping cotton in a mixture of nitric and sulphuric acid. It looks like ordinary cotton, but burns quickly and readily, and if confined it explodes on ignition. It was used for blasting operations and producing ammunition.

    Cellulose nitrate - aka nitrocellulose - was used by the Eastman Kodak company for motion picture film in 1889. Projection booths in cinemas had to be lined with asbestos (a double hazard for the poor projectionist!), but once the film caught alight it was very hard to put out - some types even continued burning underwater. Not surprisingly, there were a number of tragic fires in theatres, as well as movie warehouses.

    To cut down the risk, safety film was introduced in 1948 - Cellulose acetate. This proved to be very unstable - when kept in warm, moist conditions the acetic acid (vinegar) is released, giving rise to the characteristic of this type of celluloid and also the name 'Vinegar Syndrome' for the degradation process that destroyed even more precious movie stock!

    Each type of celluloid has certain additives, such as:

    camphor (used to plasticise the celluloid, ie make it plastic, less brittle, also acted as an agglutinising agent and a mild preservative)
    colouring agents - dyes, etc
    stabilizer
    anti-flammable agents
    fillers - to give opacity - sometimes powdered asbestos was used.

    Other things like solvents were used (ethyl alcohol, etc), but these are largely volatile and only traces may remain.

    Each type has variants according to what was added to it, so it is hard to define any type exactly.

    Celluloid Rot

    Celluloid, like any plastic, will degrade over time. However, certain types of celluloid appear to be immune to celluloid rot. Lighter coloured celluloid degrades more than dark celluloid. The reason for this is probably that the darker, opaque types have a large amount of filler material in them and less actual celluloid, so the filler either delays or stops the process. You can often see a practical example of this in clear scales with mottling of other, darker colours: the blade under the scales is attacked where the clear areas are and virtually unaffected where the dark areas are - a good example of how little the 'creep' or 'spread' actually is with regard to metal.

    The main aspect of celluloid rot apart from making the scales unusable is that it attacks the metal of the razor, leaving rust-like marks and pits from the acids that out-gas as it breaks down. Celluloid may contain 70 - 80% acid, which is quite a high ratio! Although not 'living' and incapable of spreading in the real sense of the word, if kept in close proximity to other razors, especially in a warm environment with little or no airflow, the acidic vapour will spread and attack both the metal of the other razors (to a very small degree - acid attack is fairly localised and you can generally see no effects past the edge of the scales on closed blades) and other celluloid scales that are prone to degradation - it will hasten the breakdown of the material. However, in the case of the celluloid scales that are immune, the vapour does not affect them. I have made numerous experiments to prove this.

    However, it is best to be safe rather than sorry and immediately quarantine any suspected razors and preferably remove the blade from the scales. Not keeping razors in warm, moist environments, in direct sunlight in glass cases and airtight enclosures are good preventative measures.

    Symptoms of celluloid rot include:

    a smell of vinegar - this is the first sign that the celluloid is deteriorating
    shrinkage - due to loss of acid - may be by as much as 10% shrinkage
    if there are inlays, which will not shrink, then buckling may occur
    splits,again attributable to shrinkage
    deposits of salts (crystals) and beads of liquid - plasticiser migrating to the surface - an advanced sign of degradation.

    Note the difference between the onset of celluloid rot and its advanced stage - the smells are different. The first produces the characteristic vinegar smell, the latter a smell of camphor (like mothballs, or some types of medicine).

    Regards,
    Neil
    SirStropalot, Wullie and MJC like this.

  6. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Neil Miller For This Useful Post:

    MJC (11-08-2012), Voidmonster (11-09-2012)

  7. #36
    Senior Member tiddle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gssixgun View Post
    I have heard yes and no some people say it is impossible, HOWEVER two facts tell me that it is possible and I believe those two facts more than the one "Mr. Science" that argued the point..

    I met a collector at the first razor meet I went to that told a story of how he himself lost near 1000 razors to Cellrot that crept from razor to razor in a closed area..

    The Film Institute lost 1000's of old celluloid films to cellrot before they could be saved, it is my understanding that it crept from film to film in the vault...


    Now with those two stories in my brain I really could careless what anyone else says I isolate the razors and toss the scales...
    Glen's right here; they gas emitted from the break down is what causes the oxidation and pitting in the steel. So, from that you can pretty much conclude, that if there is steel close enough for the gases to settle on to it, it can be effected as well. I've seen the celluloid films, and yes, it's like the flu when it starts to spread. I had a set of top flight scales that still looked good, only needed some buffing, til' I noticed that musty vinegar smell; came on the forum and was advised by glen, neil, and mike to trash them...didn't look back.
    Last edited by tiddle; 11-08-2012 at 07:38 PM.
    Mastering implies there is nothing more for you to learn of something... I prefer proficient enough to not totally screw it up.

  8. #37
    Captain ARAD. Voidmonster's Avatar
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    I once bought a razor for $5 that had profound cel rot just to see if the blade could be made usable.

    The answer was yes, but with a serious caveat. I was only able to hone to good metal because the grind (a very, very hollow 'Hamburg Ring') had a slight belly near the bevel. The majority of the blade is eaten completely through and produces a nasty, serrated edge.

    It's my go-to razor for short trips that involve air-travel, because I really wouldn't care if it was stolen by airport security.
    -Zak Jarvis. Writer. Artist. Bon vivant.

  9. #38
    Thread derailment specialist. Wullie's Avatar
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    John Wesley Hyatt - was looking for an ivory substitute, particularly for billiard balls. He found an ivory substitute consisting of cellulose nitrate and camphor in 1870, called the product Celluloid and marketed the balls in 1872, with disastrous results - the balls tended to explode when they collided!
    Not the first time I'd heard of this phenomena.

    Remington used a version they called pyremite for pocket knife scales. Early versions of that stuff were also known to spontaneously ignite.

    I bet that made for some interesting games.
    Member Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club, participant SE Asia War Games 1972-1973. The oath I swore has no statute of limitation.

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