Thread: Seeking knowledge

I really want to see what Voidmonster says, so I'm tuning in. Very nice score Newguy!!

how does the "new guy" get a nice 1700's razor out of dumb luck and for 15 bucks with another nice razor. God I want a 1700's shaver in that good of condition and I would gladly add another 0 to that price for one too. Trust me new guy, we are all green with envy of your score.

Since other folks seem to have got you covered with the 'modern' one, I'll take a crack at the old razor.

Also because it's a fun one!

First and foremost, it's Sheffield-make, and probably no later than 1790.

Second, that mark: "R(heart) / SPAIN" doesn't turn up in any of the pre-1800 directories (Gales & Martin 1774, Gales & Martin 1787, Universal British Directory 1791).

It would be helpful if you could get a clearer picture of the stamp on the spine. On some of the much older razors, that's where the manufacturer's name was, as opposed to their trademark on the tang. "B:ROB" is only partial and I'm not certain the 4th letter is a B. There are at least several letters after the uncertain one. Try angling it around in the light.

I think it was made by Ann Rowland, but if it was, then the 1774 Gales & Martin has a misstamp for her.



Ann Rowland is no longer listed in the 1787 Gales & Martin (though 'Widow Rowland' is, she is listed separately in the 1774 edition, and has her own mark which is carried into the 1787 edition -- a mark that is considerably different from this one).

I cannot find any information on how Ann got into the trade. Certainly it was by marriage, since she isn't in the apprentice registers (and would have been in those days), but it's unclear to me who her husband was. Perhaps Sleigh Rowland, who seems to have been somewhat prolific with his apprentices and his children. But the fact that there are at least three generations of boys born with the exact same name makes it very difficult to be sure, and I cannot find any burial records that pertain.

That leaves us with the mark on the spine. That might help to either be certain it was the work of the good Mrs. Rowland or to rule her out.

Either way, it's a very old razor in extraordinary condition!

And yes, the scales are horn. Use tape on the spine when you hone it. Be aware, you won't be able to get an edge quite as far back as you think you should be able to. Don't worry about that, on that style razor, all the work is done with the point. You'll be pinching the tang on the sides rather than the top and bottom, so it's easy to maneuver.

These were about the best I could get. The reason I thought it was Robertson is because it looks like an N at the end there. Thanks for the input!

Yeah. Looking at that one, I think it says Robertson.

This isn't a perfect type-match, but it's close enough to see there's good correspondence for the letter spacing. The last letter is definitely an 'N'.



That only makes it more mysterious though.

Only 4 Robertsons show up in the apprentice registers, and they're all a bit late. All but one completed their apprenticeships after 1800, and the one who didn't was in the wrong trade. None were specifically apprenticed to razor manufacturers, but many general cutlers and regular knife makers also made razors.

The mystery remains.

But it also continues to be a magnificent specimen.

That certainly adds to the uniqueness of it! I will have to keep digging. Thanks!

I don't think Ann Rowland of Westbargreen was Widow Rowland of Back Lane - the widow's name was Elaizabeth. A thread regarding this razor was stated on the now defunct Artisan Shaving site by a friend of the owner, a subscriber to the Coupe Chou forum. The razor is pictured below:



And it so happens that it is the mark of Widow Rowland from Back Lane, Sheffield (from the 1787 Sheffield Directory) but earlier from Church Lane:



Notice that Elizabeth is not cited as a widow in this listing from the Sheffield Advertiser of 1774.

Somehow the 'SPAIN' mark of Ann Rowland got mentioned, witness this clip from the Coupe Chou Club dated 2012:



It refers back to the full thread I made on Artisan Shaving, which unfortunately I did not make a record of! The upshot of it was that the two Rowlands are related somehow, perhaps mother and daughter. We know that Elizabeth is recorded as a cutler (in both the Sheffield and Gale & Martin Directories) and also a widow, but was her husband the original cutler, or was it her father? There is a record of Robert Rowland and Elizabeth Ellingworth marrying in 1755 and giving birth to a daughter called Ann in 1765, but the details are scant and the probability is that it is just a coincidence.

It looks like Elizabeth was still going strong in 1792, though:



There could be a couple of possibilities for the obscured mark "B: ROB......" but without further info its just supposition and pretty groundless. First, if Ann was Elizabeth's daughter, and Elizabeth inherited her mark from her husband, then Ann, unless she worked with her mother, would need a mark of her own - her recorded mark could have once belonged to the mystery name. Secondly, if Elizabeth is only related to Ann by her marriage to Mr Rowland, then Ann would be a sister or other female relative of Mr Rowland. Mr Rowlands mark would presumably go to the widow - Elizabeth, leaving Ann to find her own mark yet again. One other possibility is that Ann married or died, which is why she is not found in any other directories. Her stock could have been bought out and the new owners mark - the mystery man's - could have been appended to the stock.

The one thing that ties the two marks (Elizabeth's and Ann's) together is that capital 'R' for Rowland.

Too many unknowns to be of any use, however.

Regards,
Neil

The name on the spine is Robinson, not Robertson.

One possibility for "B: Robinson":
Benjamin ROBINSON in 1730 apprentice with the Master Jonathan HILL
Among his apprentices were:
1738 John WHEELDON (son of John WHEELDON, tailor)
1751 William ELLIOTT (son of Edward ELLIOTT, cutler)
1752 Edward OLDFIELD (son ofThomas OLDFIELD, miner)
1757 Joseph ROBERTS (son of John ROBERTS, cutler)

Later, among his apprentices is John ROWLAN which became "freemen" in 1781

Is the only B. Robinson I could find among Sheffield cutlers and neighborhoods in the period corresponding to the razor.

This is part of why I love this site. There is such a wealth of information here!