Thread: Transitioning from tools to razors

Originally Posted by Scatterjoy

Minute 4:23 here the very first search. Ok. Now I know this too. I don’t have any relation to this dude

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lASfmYFMQ44

. It’s common to see folks prove on paper but the true test is on “tree top” free standing hair, right?

Do not put too much stock into this video.
There are many good video's out there. This isn't one of them.

Originally Posted by stoneandstrop

Mirror is not sharp. The edge is what's sharp
Something can be mirror polished (the bevel) and the edge is crap.
Some natural stones leave a hazy, sometimes scratchy looking bevel.
The absolute edge is all that matters! Once you can see it well you will understand.
Once the bevel is set and it MUST be set before moving forward, the rest is just smoothing out what is there without degrading the edge at all.

The apex of the edge in strict terminology. Where the two plains meet is where the rubber meets the road. As stated, if the plains are polished they can shine like a mirror but if the apex is not clean it won't shave for squat. The plains meeting cleanly at the apex is what people mean by the bevel being completely set.

Also as mentioned Arkansas stones will leave a frosted looking edge (all the way up to translucent and black hard Ark) but are some of the crispest/keenest there are. Mirror polish may look nice but it is only aesthetic, unless it goes all the way to a clean apex of course.

Welcome to the forum BTW. Hope you get lots of help and get where youre wanting to go. Take Mike up on that offer as he is in fact a master (among many here but probably the closest ) I'm a little far but would be glad to hone one or two for you for the price of the shipping...oh, and I'm a red wine drinker.

Originally Posted by Scatterjoy

Really great. I thought DMT stones were much finer. And the paper….

As a tool-sharp guy, I’ve never had anything as sharp as this in my hand but it’s not even close to shave ready. I’ll focus on that 8k range. Get some lapping knowledge, confirm I’m not stropping it to death… It’s mirror sharp aside from a few visible scratches and no burs or lip reflections. Just amazed that’s all. It’s certainly fun.

That shiny strip in your pic looks like an incomplete bevel to me . Are you sure you honed all the way to the edge ?

Below is what you're aiming for :

Welcome! Some great advice given. One more tip. Ink your bevel with a sharpie, you can then easily if your hitting the bevel completely.

Excuse the crude arrows but you can see your bevel is not complete, there is a white line all the way down. Keep going on your bevel setter until it is complete.

Enjoy your journey

Originally Posted by PaulFLUS

The apex of the edge in strict terminology. Where the two plains meet is where the rubber meets the road. As stated, if the plains are polished they can shine like a mirror but if the apex is not clean it won't shave for squat. The apexes meeting cleanly is what people mean by the bevel being completely set.

Also as mentioned Arkansas stones will leave a frosted looking edge (all the way up to translucent and black hard Ark) but are some of the crispest/keenest there are. Mirror polish may look nice but it is only aesthetic, unless it goes all the way to a clean apex of course.

Welcome to the forum BTW. Hope you get lots of help and get where youre wanting to go. Take Mike up on that offer as he is in fact a master (among many here but probably the closest ) I'm a little far but would be glad to hone one or two for you for the price of the shipping...oh, and I'm a red wine drinker.

The Apex is true, but viewing just the apex(both sides at once) will do nothing for you other than tell you whether the bevel is set or not. There are a few tests for this but once done...
We use a loupe or microscope to view the edge/bevel from one side - hence, the absolute edge.
We can see that the effects of each stone goes all the way to the absolute edge before moving on.
We are looking to make sure the absolute edge itself is getting refined and staying straight with a smooth,straight line void of any roughness,chips,holes - what have you.

Even when viewed from one side if the honing goes all the way to absolute edge - that is the Apex

Semantics

This is an excellent tip. eBay is full of junk and expensive stuff. I found one reasonably priced.

btw Soviet era optics had some pockets of amazing quality. Lomographic cameras produce fine cameras (that unfortunately don’t last very long). (Sorry to distract)

So here’s the plan. I need to study the edge. You’re all making it so clear.

I ordered a loupe, an Naniwa 8000 stone and I’ll keep looking for a 3-4k step when my bank account recovers.

Is the DMT EXTRA Fine ok to set the bevel? As I understand, its microns are equivalent to 1-2k grit. It feels like 1k. Maybe a combination stone is fine for a beginner to learn the art of bevel?

Originally Posted by Scatterjoy

This is an excellent tip. eBay is full of junk and expensive stuff. I found one reasonably priced.

btw Soviet era optics had some pockets of amazing quality. Lomographic cameras produce fine cameras (that unfortunately don’t last very long). (Sorry to distract)

You cant beat a Belomo.

I have bought so many loupes, 20x 40x 60x lighted. I wouldn't get a Belomo because of the cost but you know what, I listened to the guys here, I pushed the boat out and it is the absolute bees knees.
I could have got one at the start and saved a lot of money on the others that weren't great and listened to the guys that know from the start.

Forget everything else, spend your money on a Belomo Triplet 10X its all you need and it doesn't have to be so close you hit the edge.

Originally Posted by Scatterjoy

So here’s the plan. I need to study the edge. You’re all making it so clear.

I ordered a loupe, an Naniwa 8000 stone and I’ll keep looking for a 3-4k step when my bank account recovers.

Is the DMT EXTRA Fine ok to set the bevel? As I understand, its microns are equivalent to 1-2k grit. It feels like 1k. Maybe a combination stone is fine for a beginner to learn the art of bevel?

It is fine to use a diamond plate to knock out the heavy lifting if a blade is either badly chipped or has no bevel at all. It should be followed though by a bevel setting stone; 1k-2k preferably. It is just not really right for it. The scratch marks are very pronounced. If you get good optics (or ANY optics really) you can see it plainly.

Also, it.should be stated that looking at the plains of the bevel is only part of it. You also need to look down on the edge from the top. If you see any shiny spots those are microchips and shiny strips are places where the bevel plains do not meet.

Originally Posted by PaulFLUS

It is fine to use a diamond plate to knock out the heavy lifting if a blade is either badly chipped or has no bevel at all. It should be followed though by a bevel setting stone; 1k-2k preferably. It is just not really right for it. The scratch marks are very pronounced. If you get good optics (or ANY optics really) you can see it plainly.

Also, it.should be stated that looking at the plains of the bevel is only part of it. You also need to look down on the edge from the top. If you see any shiny spots those are microchips and shiny strips are places where the bevel plains do not meet.

This can't be stated enough!!Looking down at the edge is the ONLY visible sign that your bevel is fully set. Confirmation is by testing it on the arm hair, tomato...whatever.

It reminds me of a time long ago honing away and looking at the absolute edge all the way along the progression but never confirming the bevel set. Shaved like crap because there was a flat spot between the two edges that is not visible when only looking at the edge from one side.

Bevel must be set well before moving along which is what Paul was mentioning the apex for.
Once it is set you are only viewing the absolute edge on both sides confirming the last stone has done its job right to the absolute edge.