Thread: Transitioning from tools to razors

Originally Posted by Scatterjoy

Adding loupe…15x is enough? Ok. On iit boss

For our purposes, I do not believe that there is a loupe superior to the 10x Belomo Triplet. Not only are the optical qualities of the lenses top notch, but the focal length is such that you do not have to risk contact with the razor. Field of view and magnification are just about right for honing. No, it doesn't come with an LED and a secret battery compartment. Not needed. This loupe gathers plenty of light. These used to be pretty cheap and not so cheap now, but probably still way cheaper than the equivalent quality B&L. I had used generic LED lighted loupes for some time before this was recommended to me, and it was a game changer.

Note that they make a 20x but it is NOT the same instrument. You want the Belomo Triplet in 10x. Or not. Whatever. I have an unpardonable bias toward things that work well and hit outside their weight class.

Originally Posted by Scatterjoy

Ok… this is so common on YouTube for both tool sharpeners and I’ve seen a few razor fellas do it too. It is taboo… good to know.

By far the best way to get started in this thing is to begin with a true shave ready razor. They don't come that way from the factory, normally. I know it sounds backwards, learning how to use the tool before learning how to make it sharp, but trying to learn to use a razor that you are concurrently trying to learn to hone is incredibly frustrating and takes a lot out of you. Many try and fail, and throw in the towel.

BUT since hey, here you are, I will re itterate and say that yeah, slicing paper is a great test for a chisel but not so for a razor. Now everyone will tell you that the real test is the shave test, and this is very close to the truth. How the razor shaves is what matters. Other tests are not proof, only indicators that it ought to be worth a test shave. But the save test is maybe not very conclusive if you are not yet experienced in shaving in the manly way. You can look for the HHT test on the coticules,be site. This is a commonly used test. I use the TTT, or TreeTopping Test. The razor is passed briskly through the air at least 1/4" ABOVE the skin of the forearm. If it severs at least a couple of hair tips and leaves them laying on the razor, you probably have a pretty good edge, one that anybody would consider to probably be shave ready, if all the other ducks are in a row. I call that TTT-3. At TTT-4, the razor treetops nearly every hair it encounters, and this is usually going to be an extremely sharp razor with very good cutting power, indeed. Finally there is TTT-5, where the razor does this with no perceptible ping or tink sound, and no disturbance can be felt at the base of the hair. This is an almost mythical level of sharpness and no matter how you try, you will not dependably achieve this. If you do get to TTT-5, that occasion will be cause for great joy. But sometimes the razor will not treetop at 1/4". If it will do so at 1/8", that's TTT-2 and you might or might not consider this level of sharpness to be shave ready. If you have to lower the blade to just barely above the skin or brushing lightly over the skin, that is TTT-1. You can make it shave, sort of like how yeah, you can probably make a clam shell shave. Ouch. If it does not readily shave the forearm in full contact with the skin, TTT-0. Honestly, your pocketknife ought to be better than that. A razor can give you a solid TTT-3 and still not have a very good edge. Examination under a very bright light with a decent loupe like the Belomo 10x will tell the rest of the story. Chips? Dings? Fin or wire edge? More work to do.

Your particular hair texture can skew the results a little. Also your sweep technique. It is possible to become skilled at achieving a great TTT or HHT level, with a not quite there edge. You will have to eventually verify and calibrate your method and results, but for now, it is what it is, simply an indicator. If the razor only can give you say TTT-1 or 2, don't be too hard on yourself if the shave is not superb. If it is a good solid TTT-3 or TTT-4, and the edge looks great when you rock the reflection from your work light over the bevel, and you are not getting a good shave, then working on your shave technique is going to be essential.

We usually do not get tools up to treetopping sharp. When the included bevel angle is much over 20°, the bevel angle itself makes such cutting power difficult or impossible to achieve. When you have say a 16° bevel angle, in good steel with good heat treat, you can get very good cutting power, but the edge is also quite delicate, which is why the collective gasp of horror over your paper slicing.

Originally Posted by Scatterjoy

Really great. I thought DMT stones were much finer. And the paper….

As a tool-sharp guy, I’ve never had anything as sharp as this in my hand but it’s not even close to shave ready. I’ll focus on that 8k range. Get some lapping knowledge, confirm I’m not stropping it to death… It’s mirror sharp aside from a few visible scratches and no burs or lip Attachment 351131reflections. Just amazed that’s all. It’s certainly fun.

An image from the side, looking straight at the bevel surface, will tell you more. Roll the razor in your work light and watch the reflection as it moves across the bevel toward or away from the edge. It took a second for me to digest the pic but it is also instructive, as you should be able to see little sparklies anywhere that there is a chip or ding or undeveloped edge. At first glance I thought I was looking at an edge not yet fully developed, where you see the tiny line of reflection. Good pic. But try rolling the reflection across the bevel face, too.

SANDPAPER. It has its place. I really like it for lapping stones. I use 4" wide roll. My stone lapping plate is an 18" long and 1" thick plate of cast acrylic from TAP Plastics. I lightly spray the back of the sandpaper with 3M spray adhesive but any equivalent spray adhesive will work, then place one corner, stretch it tight, and carefully roll it down onto the acrylic, being careful to not include any air bubbles. This long abrasive surface is great for stone lapping because there is no error induced by overrunning the edge. Bear in mind that first of all, there will always be particles of grit that stand proud of the rest. They will leave deeper scratches and need to be knocked down, perhaps by honing a cheap SS chef knife or something. Second, even after you do that, it will still leave a scratch pattern significantly rougher than the grit number would suggest. So always go finer than you think you should. I like the red resin type wet/dry paper. The plate you use should not flex and should be extremely flat.

I sometimes use this system for setting the bevel of a razor, but I use a plate 1-1/2" thick, 3" wide, 12" long, and I always hold this in hand. The thickness keeps my fingertips out of the honing plane. The acrylic is quite flat, though you may have to very slightly chamfer the edges. This size of plate is also excellent for two other uses, setting up a set of pasted balsas and honing with lapping film. So I keep quite a few of these around. Anyway, when used correctly and carefully, sandpaper gives you a very flat honing surface that can never dish appreciably and can be quickly renewed. Acetone will remove adhesive residue without dissolving the acrylic. This is NOT superior to using a well lapped stone of appropriate size and grit, but it can work.

I like the Chosera 600 and 1k stones for bevel setting and minor edge repair. I have a couple of stones for heavier work, my Kuromaku being my go-to in 320 grit. I clean up after the Chosera with a 1k Naniwa SuperStone. It just leaves a much nicer bevel. The Chosera is great for roughing it in. A Norton 1k of either very old vintage or new production can also be useful as a bevel setter. The quality of this stone seemed to take a serious downturn about 20 years ago but the one I bought recently is decent, a nice big stone, consistent, just a bit coarser than 1k, and behaves more like a 600 grit stone. A Naniwa 1k will clean up well, after it, though. Or 2k grit wet/dry if it is stuck properly to a nice flat plate. This leaves a lot of work for your 3k or 4k stage. The 3k Naniwa doesn't really shine for me. A 4k Norton might be worth looking into. Then you want an 8k, and the Naniwa Superstone will not disappoint. And you already have the 12k which is a rather nice and easy to use finisher.

And I might add that I actually use lapping film mostly, after setting the bevel on synthetic stone but occasionally paper. The bevel setter and your repair stones are the excavators. Their job is to remove steel but without doing too much damage. Everything after that needs to be able to refine the bevel and therefore the edge. You don't set the bevel with your 8k. You get this done somewhere in the 600 to 2000 grit range. There is no point in moving to a finer stone until the bevel is properly set. Each stage leaves its own characteristic scratches, and in making its removal of its tiny toll of steel, obliterates the coarser scratches of the previous stage. Then the next stage removes THOSE new scratches, replacing them with its own finer ones. Jumping grits makes a LOT more work. Each stage must be allowed to completely do its job before moving on. You intuitively already know this, I am sure, but with razors, you need to develop an awareness of when a stage is "done".

So anyway, after setting the bevel, my lapping film progression is 15µ, which is not truly necessary but sort of sets the stage and accomplishes the hand-off from stone to film, then 9µ, 3µ, and finally 1µ which is just a little finer than the 12k Naniwa. Choice of film is important. I know of nothing worth considering other than 3M type 261 or 262, NanoLapTech 26M, or ThorLabs, and TL doesn't do 1µ. A lot of "just as good as" stuff online. fake stuff, and "lapping paper", "polishing film", and other pseudo labels that keeps you from returning crap that is not true lapping film. If it doesn't say "lapping film", then it isn't. Also I do not like sticky back film, or PSA film, Pressure Sensitive Adhesive. Plain back will stick nicely to your acrylic plate if there is no lint or dust, and plenty of water, and you squeegee it out well with an old credit card. Economically, film makes a lot of sense when you only have a few razors to hone. A sheet is cut lengthwise into three pieces, and each piece does a dozen or more razors, except at the bevel setting stage, which is why I use stones there. So, around 40 razors per sheet, about three bucks a sheet, and if you hone a LOT of razors then you don't save anything using film, but if you will never wear out a stone, film is economical and also the initial entry point is cheap. TAP Plastics is my go-to for acrylic. Great service, good product with good cuts, decent prices. You don't wear out the acrylic, obviously, because the razor never touches it. You can't break it. You can hold it in hand or if you insist on bench honing, you can do that. You get a nice big chunk of honing real estate, with a very flat surface.

Let me also point out that once a razor is sharp, the only stone you need to keep it that way is your finisher. If you buy a shave ready razor from a trusted member of the community, ditto. Beware of internet shave ready. Every seller claims their razor is shave ready. After all, it has a blade, and a handle, right? LOL they don't have a clue, usually. Never trust someone to hone your razor who does not shave daily with a straight razor. Buy from someone in the community whose reputation is on the line with every sale. If the edge does not satisfy, don't be reluctant to get in touch with the seller. Everyone has an off day once in a while. All reputable sellers will make it right. If it doesn't give you a solid TTT-2 and you simply can't make it shave for you, it could be that the edge isn't quite there. Or it could be your own perception. That's why to buy from a member of the community. He wants to make sure you are satisfied, not just to take the money and run.

The 1µ film or 12k synthetic stone edge can in some cases for some shavers feel less than totally smooth and comfortable. There are ways to mitigate this. You can get to that later. Myself, I "post-finish" on lapped and lightly pasted balsa glued to a solid backing. More on that, some other time. Right now you just want to get a 12k or 1µ edge that can give you a good shave when you do your part.

So, that should tell you where you need to fill in. Like others have said, I think diamond plates are great for some things, not so great for others. When well broken in, and all of the proud particles have been knocked off, they can be fast cutters and could make a good setup for edge repair. I don't like them up higher in the progression. They are great for pocketknives or kitchen knives, though. You don't shave onions and celery, and your vegetables don't complain about a rough edge that nevertheless chops and slices effortlessly.

Since you already have a 12k Naniwa, you might go with a 1k and 4k Norton, and an 8k Naniwa SuperStone to round out your setup. Film is very nice but one of the best things about film is you don't have to buy costly stones, and the 12k Nanny, which you already have, is the costliest stone you need to buy. Coarser stones cost less, even within the same brand. And the finisher is what you will use the most.

Originally Posted by markbignosekelly

Welcome! Some great advice given. One more tip. Ink your bevel with a sharpie, you can then easily if your hitting the bevel completely.
Attachment 351137
Excuse the crude arrows but you can see your bevel is not complete, there is a white line all the way down. Keep going on your bevel setter until it is complete.

Enjoy your journey

I thought that, too at first, but it looks like your arrows point to the spine. I believe that is an edge-on pic.

After shopping, I’ve got a Naniwa set 1,3,8,12 and a loupe just came in. Lots in transit so I’m a bit paused and anxious.

I think it’s natural to have focused on the higher end precision stones but you all taught me to start at the other end…

When my daughter was born I looked at her face and asked if it was a boy or girl…. Same thing…. All backwards…

First the edge. Since the loupe arrived, my practice razor is a mess with pockets of beautiful shiny spots that I’d be proud of on a chisel.

Originally Posted by Scatterjoy

After shopping, I’ve got a Naniwa set 1,3,8,12 and a loupe just came in. Lots in transit so I’m a bit paused and anxious.

I think it’s natural to have focused on the higher end precision stones but you all taught me to start at the other end…

When my daughter was born I looked at her face and asked if it was a boy or girl…. Same thing…. All backwards…

First the edge. Since the loupe arrived, my practice razor is a mess with pockets of beautiful shiny spots that I’d be proud of on a chisel.

First order of business should be to lap those stones. Yes, they are brand new. No, they are likely not as flat as they ought to be and definitely not as flat as they could be. If you do not have a lapping station set up yet, you can take any three and rub them together doing each possible pairing. Then since you have four stones, do this again, with a different stone being odd man out. Then another round robin lapping, with still another one out of the rotation, and finally leave the last one out. You should have a reasonably flat surface. When you rub two together, you can easily end up with one stone dished and one humped, so while they fit together precisely, they are precisely not flat. The round robin method minimizes this effect. Although you can take a proper straight edge, not a ruler but a machinist's straight edge, and put it to the stone diagonally, corner to corner and look for light coming through, then lay it across the other two corners and check. You can also use feeler gauges but you need three sets. Take say two pieces .006" thick and put each under an end of the straight edge. Check all along the middle and see that it resists pulling out only faintly. If you encounter the same faint rsistance along the length of the stone, you good. A certified granite surface plate is good for this, too, but you don't need tip top quality NASA grade stuff. Grizzly puts out a nice beefy one that is big enough and flat enough for our purposes for a very reasonable price, and it comes with a test report. And BTW that works well as a lapping plate, with a sheet of quality sandpaper stuck to it with spray adhesive.

Sometimes you want to re-lap the stone just because it has loaded up or glazed over. Just rubbing it on another stone will usually do the trick. Usually 4 or 5 laps under running water will gitter done. You will probably find that your 3k glazes more than any other stone in your Naniwa lineup.

Anyway after lapping your bevel setter, since you have a razor set aside for practice, work on your bevel setting. Remember that the bevel IS the edge. Without a good bevel you will only end up with a beautifully polished edge that nevertheless doesn't cut well at all. There are different ways of setting the bevel and verifying it, and they all can work if you don't quit until it's done and done right. At the completion of the bevel setting stage, you should have no sparklies as you look down the edge under your work light, or as you slowly roll the razor and watch the reflection of the light move around on the bevel. No burr, no wire, no fin edge. I suggest finishing out the bevel by holding the stone in hand, and gradually reducing pressure to only the weight of the razor, and ending with SHORT x strokes. My way is not the only way. It serves me well. You might not "get" it and you might "get" a slightly different technique. I do all the heavy lifting while deliberately raising a burr by honing one side, then doing the other and raising the burr the other way, and finally honing off the burr with regular alternating X strokes. Anybody who says this does not work, is not doing it correctly. And that's okay. You can simply HONE the darn thing until it's good and done, especially since at this point, you do not have any heavy lifting still to do on your practice razor.

A good bit of slurry on the stone will increase cutting action and retard burr formation, but also will reduce peak sharpness for the stage. When there is heavy metal removal to be done, you might even want to raise up a little slurry. However, for the completion of the bevel stage, rinse your stone well. You can even hone under running water. I like to add a few drops of dish soap, or a glop of shave lather. This creates a buffer layer that reduces scratch depth, if there is no slurry present. A great way to finish up a grit stage, especially on your finisher. You can coax a little higher level of performance out of the stone this way, by starting with moderate pressure and gradually decreasing until it seems that the razor isn't even in contact with the stone.

A good bevel should pass your visual inspection, with the edge nice and straight, teeth consistent to the grit of stone used, no sparkles, consistent reflection. It should also shave arm hair EASILY, and even shave your face if you are careful with your technique, though it won't be nothing nice and you won't want to do your whole face or do this all the time.

After you get your bevel set and verified, maybe set that one aside, if you have a razor that you bought shave ready. Try touching up the edge on your finisher. After the first two or three laps, you should be able to see with your loupe the different reflection between the new surface and the parts that need more laps. Easy does it, with the pressure, at the finish stage. I suggest beginning with the weight of your hand, then gradually reducing pressure to just the weight of the razor, finishing up with short x strokes. Just pretend your stone is only 3" or 4" long and you will get the idea. As always, touch down with the spine, then the edge. Lift first the edge, then the spine, from the stone. Most of us make a point of flipping the edge up and over, keeping the spine to the stone. When you can retouch an edge that has simply grown dull with use, you have the skill set to take your set bevel up through the progression.

I don't recall you mentioning your strop. You don't need a $250 finest horse shell one. Shell is very luxurious and pleasant to use, but a $50 cowhide one, if made from decent leather, will do the job just as good. Illinois is a decent budget brand. There are a lot of artisanal small shop operators who turn out strops from entry level to very good indeed. Tony Miller is a great guy to buy from, so you might ask him if he has any beginner strops on hand. https://heirloomrazorstrop.com/ He loves to help out the new guys and takes great pride in his work.

You can also make your own strop, and I will start a thread on that next time I make some. McMaster-Carr sells perfectly adequate 3" wide strips of veg tanned cowhide. Generally, avoid chrome tanned leather, and prefer veg tanned over oil tanned, too. Getting D rings can be an issue in the size needed, but you can try a saddle shop, or just cut a couple out of 3/16" mild steel or aluminum. I suggest three Chicago screws at each end, to secure the leather around the D ring. My favorite strop is one I made for myself, even though I have a Kanayama hanging right next to it. Please don't try to use a belt or a phone book or newspaper for routine stropping, though either will sort of work in an emergency. Not having bought one yet is not an emergency. Strop before every shave. Your face will thank you and you will find that you can go weeks and weeks without honing.

Nothing I have said here should be regarded as cut in stone, commandments from the honemeister Mount Olympus. There are many ways, and my suggestions are mostly just suggestions to be used or not, as you please. Your razor, your hand, your tools, your face. But I will say this. There are a lot of accomplished honers on this board, who get excellent results. If you mix and match details from everyone, you could end up with the Homermobile of razor edges. If you pick one guy and follow his technique and emulate his tool set, your learning curve will be a nice flat ramp upward, instead of a long drawn out squiggle that never really rises much. Lucky for you, your new honing kit is popular and many guys here I am sure use the same progression. Sometimes members argue passionately over minutae of honing technique. Don't let that confuse you. Guys argue because they are passionate about what they do, and nobody who is turning out good edges is doing it "wrong" even if they are getting shouted down by someone. So just pick one style and stick with it, and you will get results that in a fairly short time will amaze you.

The only thing that occurs to me from your excellent post is to be careful not to cross contaminate, dont rub a 1k on a 12k etc

I use wet n dry on an old mirror or a worn diamond plate or silicon powder cheap at lee valley

Wow… I love it.. “Sometimes members argue passionately over minutae of honing technique.” And I also love that I don’t need to add a lapping stone yet. I’m broke.

So none of my stones were certified new. All eBay and I have access to real certified flat engineering granite…. Adding it to lie list.

Presume all my stones came from reputable people, is this honing step FIRST Zin the edge or something I can refine later? Honest I won’t be able to tell the difference yet.

I’ve got a junk old strip full of gunk and dirt and a nice clean Illinois horse/linen combo. We’re not to restoring or maintaining those yet.

Just one question

How many successful SR shaves have you done so far ???

Originally Posted by Scatterjoy

Wow… I love it.. “Sometimes members argue passionately over minutae of honing technique.” And I also love that I don’t need to add a lapping stone yet. I’m broke.

So none of my stones were certified new. All eBay and I have access to real certified flat engineering granite…. Adding it to lie list.

Presume all my stones came from reputable people, is this honing step FIRST Zin the edge or something I can refine later? Honest I won’t be able to tell the difference yet.

I’ve got a junk old strip full of gunk and dirt and a nice clean Illinois horse/linen combo. We’re not to restoring or maintaining those yet.

Lapping the stones should come before actually using them to hone razors. It really does matter.

What most of us do is to draw a grid pattern on the stone with a pencil, and rub until the grid is gone. However, slurry trapped under the stone can cause the absent grid to be a false indicator. And so, rinsing the lapping surface and redrawing the grid, and once more rubbing until it is gone, is a good final step in lapping a stone. The second run should only require a few strokes, a dozen at most, because the first go will get it very close, slurry notwithstanding. This is lapping for flatness. You might also lap a stone lightly to renew the surface when it is glazed.

If your old horsehide strop is not cracked or wrinkled, restoring it won't be a very difficult task. Usually we use neats foot oil. Fiebing's is the brand that you will most likely encounter. Get the 100% pure and not a compound or blend. The most common, in fact almost universal beginner mistake is using too much. A few drops in the palm of your hand, rubbed in well and rubbed in some more, will restore the suppleness of the strop if it is not too far gone. Give it a good rub every day and in a week, maybe repeat, until it is no longer stiff as a board. Then repeat a couple times year. Some guys just lather the strop with a tallow based shave soap. I have also used rendered beef tallow when I had no neats foot available. Remember, it is easy to use too much, and takes a long time to correct that. If not enough, that is remedied easily. So, less is more.