Thread: What makes a razor pass the HHT?

Warning -- a lot of contencious opinion follows:

In regards to the OP and thread:

Very true. I think I would try twenty laps on linen. That might bring the razor back to HHT. Using a barber hone incorrectly will also eliminate the possibility of passing the HHT until the razor has been re-stropped significantly.

The HHT still has a valid purpose. I think we should continue to progress peoples knowledge about how it works and how to do it.

It would be nice to get people to learn more about how to use and test razors, before they try them on their face. As long as we are clear that a razor can shave well before passing most peoples definition of a HHT.

In general, and no longer responding to the OP:

Originally, when I did the HHT I used chest hair. Now I use arm hair and just leave it on the arm. The fine, soft, conditioned hair, off a womans head would never work for me. The hair on my arm is really soft and fine though. Finer than my beard.

I also think we should have some respect for the HHT. A "straight razor" that can not cut a hair does not deserve the moniker. Yes, you can shave with it, but should you? Maybe, and maybe not. I'll argue that you should not. So, assuming you really do understant the HHT, and the variety of hairs, etc. Why try to shave with a razor that doesn't cut hair? I agree that a beginner can shave with a razor that doesn't pass, but should an advanced practicioner try to shave with a razor that doesn't pass any HHT? Most likely, no, he should not. He should at least be able to find some test that validates that the razor is sharp. Even a moderately experienced person should have some understanding of how to measure sharpness as he hones, without having to shave.

The three valued tests, to me, include the thumbnail test, the thumbpad test, and the HHT test. Since this is the beginners forum I will elaborate on these three a little. The thumbnail test is done while honing primarily to ensure you have a "sharp" bevel and a consistent edge. On the other end of the spectrum you have the thumbpad test which is directly focused on "shave readiness". To me this means sharp and smooth. This test is pretty tough for me, but requires a lot of stropping. That's fine though, considering the purpose.

In the middle we have our much underappreciated HHT. Now, what I consistently fail to understand is, given the purpose of the test, why people want to use the test before stropping. If you follow the rule that you will always strop before shaving, and you do not strop before doing the HHT, I think you might be missing the purpose and timing of the test for you. And understanding the purpose, timing, and the "readings" you get from a test is very valuable. So, it's okay to use the HHT as you hone to test for the razor becoming sharper. It will often start "catching" hair as it becomes sharper, but, stropping may be in order too. The HHT should never be relegaded to the "it's not really important" status because you don't understand it or can't do it.

So to me, the bottom line is that with any test that directly deals with the shave readiness or the ability to cut hair, the test should follow (and measure) both honing and stropping. Not only does it ensure that you've given the edge all the benefits it deserves before the test, you also can evaluate how much you are dulling the edge by stropping. Ultimately, the edge is never going to touch a hair without being stropped. To me it would be like testing a razor by shaving without stropping to determine how well you've honed, and I don't think that is, at an advanced level, the right viewpoint to take.

A few things:

• I fully agree with Alan about having a test, as you advance, that gives a good indication of the shave readiness of a razor without having to test shave
• For me that test is the HHT
• I do, however, attain a "catch and pop" level of passing my test prior to stropping which leaves me with a clean HHT afterwards
• That's a fine post above me

Cheers

Alan that is a great read !!!

I am also one for only doing the HHT after stropping, and I have taken the time to develop mine...
Alan you should also mention, and I know you didn't because you don't want to brag, but I can tell you people from meeting Alan at one of the NC Razorcon's that he is one of the most meticulous, and accurate "stroppers" (is that a word) that I have had the pleasure of watching... He is one of those people that can draw a very fine edge from stropping, and it is a skill that many should try and master...

+1 great read. I also do HHT, if I do it, after stropping. My reason for doing it after stropping is that I never had much luck with it after honing without stropping. OTOH, popping arm/leg hair without touching skin during/after honing is routine.

I've seen it written that for best results a clean and washed hair held with the root towards the blade is the way to go. I take a greasy old hair out of my hair brush and try it with that. If it just won't cut I have a Gillette Swede or a Feather DE blade on the counter and I try it with that. Not infrequently I've had no luck getting HHT with the straight and go to the DE blade and the hair just skids across the edge without cutting. At that point I know to grab a different hair.

My hair is a PITA. It is a mix of gray, white and still a small amount of brown. It is so fine that I have to have good light and the correct background to see it. Some of them, depending on where they came from and the color, will never cut with HHT. TBH I don't even know why I bother with it.

This morning before I went to work I selected a Kropp full hollow from the pile and stropped it. Grabbed a hair out of the brush and no luck. I went in and did some passes on a blue/green Escher and stropped again. Still no luck so I grabbed the DE and it wouldn't cut that particular hair either. Pressed for time with having to go to work I did a 2 pass shave with the Kropp and got bbs with no irritation.

Originally Posted by AFDavis11

A "straight razor" that can not cut a hair does not deserve the moniker. Yes, you can shave with it, but should you? Maybe, and maybe not. I'll argue that you should not. So, assuming you really do understant the HHT, and the variety of hairs, etc. Why try to shave with a razor that doesn't cut hair? I agree that a beginner can shave with a razor that doesn't pass, but should an advanced practicioner try to shave with a razor that doesn't pass any HHT? Most likely, no, he should not.

Question about this.

When one is shaving, we are holding the skin tight and the razor is shaving the hair very close to that skin. This is much different than the HHT where the hair is not held to a firm base, but held far looser than the razor would ever encounter when actually shaving.

Also, you mention a beginner can shave with a razor that doesn't pass, but an advanced shaver should not shave with one that doesn't pass. In my short experience, I find I can now get a decent shave even with a less than perfectly sharp razor because my technique has developed. In the beginning, I wasn't getting great shaves even with a Lynn sharpened razor. Obviously, the less sharp that first razor could be, the shaves would only be worse. So for me, it is more important for a beginner to have as sharp a razor as possible, where as the advanced shaver can get by with less.

Mark,

That is a good point. I didn't really see a question, but I'll comment. You are correct. An advanced shaver can shave with practically anything.

The point that I was trying to make was that as we advance in experience our expectations of our honing and stropping should rise.

I think you've also pointed out a great reason why so many can get great shaves with razors that fail the HHT. I hadn't thought of that. My only thought has always pivoted around the hair being wet, but I think your point is more valid.

The ultimate test of sharpness, for me, is my DE blades. I failed the HHT on my straight, but then I checked out the same hair on my DE blade today and it failed there as well.

I don't fully understand, but I'm guessing that maybe the hairs on my head aren't alike? Maybe length also plays a factor?

Anyway, when I saw that the HHT failed on my DE blade, I gave up thinking about the HHT altogether. What has me puzzled is that my hairs always passed the HHT on my DE blades. I wonder what's going on...

So I think a lot of the problem is that we think of the HHT as a sharpness test.

I think there is more complexity involved. Most of it resides in the hair itself. Some of it resides in the recency of the honing, and some of it resides in the quality of the stropping. The HHT is probably a good test of the blades ability to "catch" hair.

So I submit that when you receive a newly honed razor from an expert, it's sharp and the HHT will not invalidate the blade's sharpness.

When you shave the hair has water in it and it opens which allows you to shave with ease. The razor, regardless of the edges alignment, will catch the shingled coticule layer and shave the whisker.

Here is a link to a site that shows pictures of the coticule and the variety of changes that occur based on hair damage, like perming, shampooing, and even combing. It also shows that the coticule runs in one direction, which is probably important for a successful HHT, as most of you already know. It has also been my experience that when measuring "catch" alone that a dry hair often catches very easily. This site also discusses how conditioners leave moisture in hair, another variable to the HHT.

P&G Beauty & Grooming | Hair Damage

Anyway, the point, I think, is that the hair is a big factor, and, I think, the results of the HHT demonstrate edge alignment, smoothness, and sharpness. Not all of which are really that important for a good shave. The HHT takes the razor to a level of quality beyond what is needed for a good shave. That is where we begin to give it the "parlor trick" description. This is also why razors shave well even if they don't "pass" the HHT.

So, I guess I would suggest that none of the "sharpness" tests are only measuring sharpness. Assuming that sharpness is a factor to all three tests; what else are we testing for? Or, what other conditions are we evaluating?

TNT (Thumbnail test): edge consistency
TPT (Thumbpad test): catch (which is why a TPT registers "stickiness")
HHT (Hanging Hair test): catch (which is why hairs get cut)
Shaving: consistency and catch (of wet hair)

So in the arsenal of tests we have some redundancy and an "ultimate" test. I would argue that shaving isn't actually a test, especially for a barber or for shaving others, but that is another thread all together. But, if you are going to shave yourself, twice in a row, the shave remains the ultimate evaluation.

I have always said the same thing when it comes to just talking HHT

"You have to develop the test to make it meaningful" it has to have a fail point that goes to a pass point for it to actually tell you anything about your edge...

I have read ll kinds of tweaking on this which I find to be total BS...

The two hairs I have available in my house disprove most any other type of HHT...

My hair will pop on basically any edge from 1k-stropped it is useless as a test..
My wife's hair will not pass until the edge is stropped, it is useful as a test to me..
But like I noted above I took the time to work through this, so that it works for me...

So to boil that down if I were to hone a blade and say "This blade passes the HHT" that could be shave ready with the wife's hair, or at 1k with my hair

We used to recommend using a DE blade to get a feel for the test, which I think is still a good idea...

I couldn't get my DE blades to pass my HHT (wife's hair), but I get a catch & pop off the hones with the same hair. Then after stropping, it's immediately cut (sometimes a slight pop, but never audible).

Like Glen says, calibrate your own test. You can use guidelines that you read elsewhere, but until you make it meaningful to you, the HHT isn't as helpful as it can be.