Thread: Grind for beginner?

Originally Posted by pinklather

Hi Glen,

Don't mean to pull your pin on this. Or stir up more heat than light. Perhaps shaptons can be optimized for smoothness, but that edge hasn't crossed my path. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Perhaps that's your thrust. Perhaps in the right hands they can - but the honing and shaving threads aren't full of threads about smoothness of edge and shaptons. If anyone has the trick up their sleeve that could make it so - I would bet you do. (remember I've tried a shapton finish from your skilled hands).

If any given stone can be used to emphasize smoothness - as opposed to max keenness, that smoothness is an aid to the noob. If others can get smoothness from other rocks - that's what would help the noob. Objecting to the broad statement - I have some respect for that. If you're guarding against folks thinking that only cotis & jnats can produce smooth - that's a worthy correction and you do us yet another service. OTOH, if you search stone type and 'smooth', you'll find both rocks I mention to be very well represented, if not dominant. That doesn't make it right for all. 'Doesn't make max smoothness right for all. I'm addressing the OP asking about what's good for a beginner. Lynn and Sham - probably many other masters of the rocks speak so highly of the Escher/Thurry. I'm not qualified to talk about them. But like yourself, they have techniques that would yield max sharp and max smooth, and most probably like some balance of that. The noob benefits from smoothness during the time technique develops. Whatever produces that benefit is what I advocate. That was the thrust of my post.

You're starting to wrap you brain around what I was saying...and what I have learned...

Simply put the more you hone the better you get, the better you get the smoother your edges get, the smoother your edges get the more you realize the "magic" is in the hands not the stones...

For the hypothetical of when you are good with many stones???? then refer back to my posts above, where you start trying to match steel to stone

Also any Newbs trying to follow this, we are talking about such minute differences here it is crazy, but we are a very specialized forum...
In other words we are OCD about Sharp !!!!


PS: Pastor/Thomas is not a Newb he is helping one out

I've read a lot of posts pertaining to both Coticule and Japanese naturals. It was the romantic nature of honing with natural stones that peaked my interest.

I started on Norton 4k/8k, added a Chinese natural, and then I dove into the Shapton set later adding a Japanese natural stone. I was perfectly content with the quality of my edges. Being morally opposed to using pastes , I refuse to use them.

Then, one day I bought a narrow coticule in order to handle my smiling and warped razors. I really had no intention of using it for anything other than those razors. But the results and single stone approach really appealed to me, so I've almost gone to coticule honing exclusively.

Now, concerning coticules and Coticule.be, Bart maintains that when he contacted Rob here to evaluate stones for him it was just his excuse to play with more stones than he'd otherwise be able to experiment with. Starting a website was his way of keeping that up (I'll take him at his word because I've never been given reason not to believe him). I've read at least a dozen times where he said that had he lived in Japan, he'd likely have a site called JNat.jp (or something along those lines). Is Ardennes benefiting from the publicity? Unquestionably yes, but sellers of Naniwas benefit from every post about their efficacy, as do sellers of Shaptons, sellers of Eschers on eBay, etc. , etc. etc.

So, now we have all the hype, and with it, we have guys who almost feel like they need to discredit it. This is unfortunate, to me because it's creating unnecessary tension. Coticules are as divisive in this scene as religious denominations, and that's baffling to me. Part of it is hyperbole on display from enthusiasts of various stones, and part of it is people who weren't so impressed sharing their experiences in such a way as to imply that those enthusiasts are suffering from a lack of experience.

Now it's time for some honesty:

I've had very similar shaving experiences on Shaptons, Japanese Naturals, Chinese Naturals, Coticules, and Cerium Oxide. The quality of the edges are really not that different when done well.

I sometimes have to do literally hundreds of strokes to get the results I want off my coticules. But, when the process is complete, I've tried razors that were equal, never better. With that, the time it takes is negligible because my stroke has gotten much faster, but for others it may take hours.

Consistency, personal preference, time, skill, etc. all play a significant role in what we use and recommend. This coticule hype is why I dislike hyperbole so much. It really is a great tool, but it's not any better or worse (in the right hands) than any of the other tools available to us. My main reason for using it is because a) I love the simplicity of one stone honing, b) I love the romantic aspect of using a natural stone, c) I love the resulting edges from a well executed honing session as much as anything that I've ever tried.

That doesn't mean my razors are better than the razor that Glen honed for me on Cerium Oxide or than my own Japanese natural stone finished razors, or any other ones for that matter. It's just what I like. And like Lynn always says, it's about having fun.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

For that exact reason, see what you just said????

Again you are thinking it is the stone that makes the edge,, With the proper technique that "Lowly Norton 8k" will smoke many pricier hones for as you keep trying to qualify as a "friendly edge" What exactly is a friendlier edge please qualify that ????

No, I'm not thinking it's the stone that makes the edge. That's what you seem to be reading into these posts. But different stones have different characteristics.

A friendly edge is one that shaves hair easily but is not aggressive toward skin, even if your shaving technique isn't the greatest. It gives me the Wow you want to give your customers.

The biggest shaving Wow I've had was from Pinklather's honing of this one blade on this one stone. That's why I felt compelled to step into this fray at all. Had it not involved that bit of personal experience I'd have moved on to another thread.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

You're starting to wrap you brain around what I was saying...and what I have learned...

Simply put the more you hone the better you get, the better you get the smoother your edges get, the smoother your edges get the more you realize the "magic" is in the hands not the stones...

For the hypothetical of when you are good with many stones???? then refer back to my posts above, where you start trying to match steel to stone


PS: Pastor/Thomas is not a Newb he is helping one out

As you and Paul put well - its the hands - and there's no shortcut there - no magic bullet rock. The entire area of stone compatibility fascinates me - such as your mentioning in past threads that shaptons seem to play well with only other shaptons in a progression. I've had a couple good examples in the last 2 wks of that. Steels and stones, I'm not very savvy on yet. 'Just the heavy sheffields not liking the asagi and preferring the coti.

I very much would like a thread in the honing section on edge attributes and which techniques serve to steer an edge towards keen or smooth and how to jockey/balance those goals on which rocks.

For Pastor's friend - a forgiving edge remains the recommendation, however it's derived.

Paul, 'just saw your post. 'Really well put - and informative. Thank You.

Getting back to the OP, I have a 1/4 hollow in my rotation. Lately, I've been using it as my "Monday shaver" because of the way it just plows through a couple of days worth of growth. If I let my beard grow, I would look like Papa Smerf, so if I go for even a day without shaving it's no joke. On a regular shave day, it shaves just fine. However, I just love the beautiful sound made by a 3/4 hollow or full hollow as they go through my beard. It's just that after a day off or two they are a little bit of a challenge to get through the thick forest all over my face. The short answer is: It depends on your personal preference, really. But if you have a thick, wiry beard like me, it would be advisable to have something closer to the wedge end of the spectrum to make those bristles feel like butter. If I had to pick just one, I would get a 3/4 or full hollow and just stay on top of it.