Thread: A Talk of Steel.

Originally Posted by bill3152

Steel is low tech these days. Very easy to make with modern technology and quality controls. Now the iphone and ipads etc are all made in china and are not simple devices that sell for a large profit margin. But yet they seem to work just fine. If they can assemble and produce a high quality electronic device like these and a proven track record of quality, making steel is much easier. My take on the whole thing is they can make cheap or good quality. Depends what you are willing to pay for it.

As galling as it is, that is exactly the case. Just remember it is to a large part western companies that have these goods manufactured there and sell to their home market while laying off workers and shutting down manufacturing facilities in their home market. On the upside they are increasing their profit margins and dividend payouts. Just remember to buy those dividend paying stocks when you are laid off so you can have a comfortable retirement. Does it hurt when you are being beaten at you own game?

Bob

Henry Ford paid his men good wages as he was right that they would buy his product. That philosophy doesnt exist here anymore. I am shocked that there is even one dollar left here in America.

Originally Posted by bill3152

Henry Ford paid his men good wages as he was right that they would buy his product. That philosophy doesnt exist here anymore. I am shocked that there is even one dollar left here in America.

True, old Henry recognized that but he was not without clay feet either Speak Out Now!: The Strike at River Rouge: Detroit 1941 .

Bob

Originally Posted by BobH

That may be a sore point but has little to do with whether they can produce a good steel or other consumer product if that is what is demanded of them. Take into account that other countries have been producing good steel longer than the US, does that make these other countries steel better?

Bob

The question as I understood it was; Why is China's steel inferior to U.S. steel, not can they produce good steel.
As I see it, as stated earlier is that they choose to produce quantity rather than quality in most cases.
I agree every country has premium producers and those who are willing to cut corners to bring in the most revenue.

Economy is sure strange, a friend is buying electronics from China.
If he has it made in Sweden he would pay for a working unit, say $100.
From China he gets them for $10 but then only 1 in 10 will pass inspection.
He still makes more money since the 9/10 scraped units are deducted as expenses.

Lots of good answers, thank you.
It seems that the common responses here are quality control & "extras" dumped into the steel making.
The question, to myself, while writting the OP was, China not capable of producing good quality steel?
It seems that by the responses here, they are, when they want too.

I'll stick with knife companies that run a strict quality control.

Originally Posted by Lemur

Economy is sure strange, a friend is buying electronics from China.
If he has it made in Sweden he would pay for a working unit, say $100.
From China he gets them for $10 but then only 1 in 10 will pass inspection.
He still makes more money since the 9/10 scraped units are deducted as expenses.

Now that is what business is all about.

Bob

Well, I don't find any problems with the steel in the Gold Dollars. It would be interesting to see a well thought, scientificly done, unbiased "steel smackdown" between the GD and some other razors, just to get a rating of sorts. I have to admit I am not unbiased because I was wowed by my modded GD, and obviously some others are too, and some more others are probably just as biased against them. I think it is obvious that the Chinese can make good stuff with the right motivation. A financial boot up their keesters. The iphone is a great piece of hardware, whatever you might think about the OS. They make great sextants that compare favorably with the best Plath sextants, lagging only by a degree of accuracy practically impossible to notice in most user's hands, and at less than 1/4 the price. They even build pretty good walls, too LOL!

My mentor who was doing the Kreigar experiment gave it a very fair chance to perform and concluded that the steel in that RSO (stamped "China") was incapable of taking an edge even when ground to a proper bevel angle. It's not just histerical hype... that steel really IS junk, proven junk, proven in a very fair test. He took off about 1/4" off the edge and ground it into a full wedge at right at 17 degrees and the edge would not form. He tried various methods of honing and could never bring it past a typical 1k edge. The bevel would not get smooth under the microscope. He says he thinks that other than the Gold Dollar and other rebranded razors from the same factory at Ningbo, this is pretty much what you are gonna get, because the Chinese just don't have an economic incentive to put good steel to use in making razors or RSO's (Razor Shaped Objects LOL!) Now obviously they can make good steel, at least make decent steel, but certainly they are not shy about making crappy steel, either. Selling RSO's never meant to be used for shaving to uninformed blade geeks and not worrying about if it can be useful or not is a pretty good business model for them if it is working. If it wasn't working they wouldn't do it, that's what I figure. Why the Gold Dollar found their nich I have not a clue. Now if we could just teach them how to grind a proper razor LOL! We need for Maestro Livi to take a little working vacation in China, I guess! Maybe he could teach them guys to make a good razor that doesn't need 80 hours of work at the buyer's end to make it shave good and look good. I'm still working on my own mod while enjoying the one I got from my mentor already modded and ready to go.

Another option for them of course would be to import steel, and have a respected and proven alloy to work with. But they could do it cheaper themselves and still get even better steel, if that was their priorities. It's not rocket science. Haven't the Swedes and Brits been making great razor steel for a couple hundred years already? It's not the technical know how that is the problem. You got to make them want to produce the best or equivelant to the best. As long as there is a market for crap and more profit in crap, they will make crap. They go where the money is.

Originally Posted by TulaneBoy

....I think it is obvious that the Chinese can make good stuff with the right motivation. ...

...It's not the technical know how that is the problem. You got to make them want to produce the best or equivelant to the best. As long as there is a market for crap and more profit in crap, they will make crap. They go where the money is.

Exactly. A friend of mine ran an architectural railing (iron balusters, rails, gate parts, etc.) and could no longer afford the price of American labor. The Chinese sent a container load of rails and gate parts that were all "off spec" just a little here and there. Nothing consistent, not a horrible waste of time or money, most things could be fixed by the expensive American labor and used effectively. He gave the Chinese company feedback with pictures and specifications. The next container load was perfect and he had to lay off the American labor. They do respond to feedback, just as the Pakistanis do, and their products improve when they realize that crap doesn't sell to some audiences. They realize the value of responding to the customer in some cases.

I know some folks in the blade business in the US who struggle to maintain quality control over the Chinese parts in their products. It requires a significant investment in time and business relationships to keep that line of communication open and protect their product. It also does nothing to stop the company manager, or related ilk, from allowing his "in-laws" to ship completely accurate counterfeits, or really awful knockoffs, out another door of the shop.

Originally Posted by Mike Blue

Exactly. A friend of mine ran an architectural railing (iron balusters, rails, gate parts, etc.) and could no longer afford the price of American labor. The Chinese sent a container load of rails and gate parts that were all "off spec" just a little here and there. Nothing consistent, not a horrible waste of time or money, most things could be fixed by the expensive American labor and used effectively. He gave the Chinese company feedback with pictures and specifications. The next container load was perfect and he had to lay off the American labor. They do respond to feedback, just as the Pakistanis do, and their products improve when they realize that crap doesn't sell to some audiences. They realize the value of responding to the customer in some cases.

I know some folks in the blade business in the US who struggle to maintain quality control over the Chinese parts in their products. It requires a significant investment in time and business relationships to keep that line of communication open and protect their product. It also does nothing to stop the company manager, or related ilk, from allowing his "in-laws" to ship completely accurate counterfeits, or really awful knockoffs, out another door of the shop.

A decade ago, I was on a plane to the US, and talking to a general manager of a company that produces silicone paste for construction use. They did a lot of business in China. He told me that he flew to China every 3 weeks, and then stayed the week to have meetings, inspect factories, talk to the bigwigs, etc. He said that face to face time was crucial in overall quality control and making things go smoothly. He said the Chinese (in his experience) don't give a damn about specs or things like that. Or rather, They will do exactly what you want if you continue to keep in touch. But you can't agree on a spec via email, once, and then expect to actually get what you asked for. It just didn't work that way.

So spending 1 week in China for every 3 weeks at home was the price he had to pay for successfully doing business with the Chinese.