Thread: Ivory

When there is too much money and profit in an illegal activity you more than likely will not be able to stop it. Like the loosing battle with the war on drugs that has been going for half a century, give or take. That does not mean you should sit idly by either, you have to try and keep it in some kind of control. In this case it is to control illegal ivory sales to try and keep a species of animal from going extinct. The difference being, unlike humans, there are not a lot of Elephants left.

Bob

Originally Posted by GC7

The only real argument I can make for no new use/sale of ivory old or new is that hopefully the perception worldwide that it is OK can change before the elephants and other ivory bearing animals are extinct FOREVER. Is this realistic? Probably not but I don't feel any loss whatever for my tiny part in trying.

I'm not advocating for ivory poaching but ........ We had this in Florida years ago when they made alligators a protected species for fear they would become extinct. That went on for 20 or so years until the population exploded to the point where they were crawling up in people's yards and killing joggers along canal banks. I ran into one, figuratively speaking, on a singletrack mountain bike trail a few years ago. They opened legal hunting of them and all concerned are the better for it.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

"Feel Good" laws like these that don't do anything to stop the problem but make people feel good are quite easy to get passed...

Most "non-hunters" are not even aware of what a cull hunt is or the balances that must be figured to keep herds alive and healthy...

That is just the legal side of the trade,,,

Some people are against any use of any animals, period...

Originally Posted by WJF

Your desire to change a bad situation is commendable. However, it has been shown through so many examples that making something illegal has little effect on stopping it and actually increases the the profit margin. Criminal activity is stimulated by the large gains. The only result is more prosecutions and more crimes. Prohibition caused more harm than the alcohol itself and never stopped it's use. Laws are good for the state. It is job security.

And there you have it...

There isn't enough money to protect the Elephants from Poachers and there never will be unless that money comes from a well managed herd...

Even that might never be viable,,, but an increase of legal managed trade, will de-value the illicit trade and maybe suffocate it...

I do not see it working,,, Because of what I said above "Some people will have a knee jerk reaction against using animals, period"

But if Elephants are going extinct I would rather they do so legally so that no monies go to terrorists like that article says.. This would at least bring the most monies to the local economy

Best of a bad situation

Originally Posted by gssixgun

And there you have it...

There isn't enough money to protect the Elephants from Poachers and there never will be unless that money comes from a well managed herd...

Even that might never be viable,,, but an increase of legal managed trade, will de-value the illicit trade and maybe suffocate it...

I do not see it working,,, Because of what I said above "Some people will have a knee jerk reaction against using animals, period"

But if Elephants are going extinct I would rather they do so legally so that no monies go to terrorists like that article says.. This would at least bring the most monies to the local economy

Best of a bad situation

Unfortunately it does not seem to working out as China has been permitted to but "legal" post ban ivory from African countries. The demand and prices for ivory have been soaring in China. See China must send a clear message to consumers on ivory trade | Paula Kahumbu | Environment | theguardian.com . I would rather Elephants not go extinct legally or illegally.

Terrorists seem to be making lots of money in places like Afghanistan and not a lot of people are advocating making opium legal for sale to the general public.

Sometimes there is no making the best of a bad situation, either way you loose.

Bob

Originally Posted by GC7

I totally understand your point. I also have no problem with anyone following the letter of the law. What I am saying is that perhaps just as an antique exotic fur coat can be or is no longer popular to wear/use that on a voluntary individual by individual basis ivory old or new might take on the same fate. Fact is that if there is a demand there will be a slaughter and if terrorists are profiting as the article suggests that's worse still.

I harbor no ill will to your use. I would like to change the mindset if possible to help these species survive.

Just for a simplistic idea of the problem:

Statistics say that before the ban approximately 10-12% of the elephants were poached for Ivory. Since the ban, 60-% of the live elephants have been poached. Hmm....
Ban on alcohol, prohibition, poisoning of the grain alcohol killed more US citizens than WWII
Ban on pot, got a whole lot of folks onto drugs that would not have due to peer pressure.
Ban embargo on Ebony, price is now almost out of sight for true Blackwood. Other tropicals' the same.

Gotta be some money involved behind these laws somewhere.
Just sayin'
~Richard

So I think we can all agree that prohibition of drugs in this country is a bad idea.

Michael

Originally Posted by mjsorkin

So I think we can all agree that prohibition of drugs in this country is a bad idea.
Michael

I would agree that now the pot usage is way up it has become a huge tax grab. Washington was almost impeached for the first whiskey tax!
Moral mileage is often different than common sense!
~Richard

It has already been stated that the law will not be enforced for private citizens. So, if you want to sell one of your Netsuke figurines and mail it and get caught it will be confiscated however you will suffer no further consequences unless of course you can prove it's age. I haven't seen the law so I don't know if the herd culls derived ivory is still legal or not.

If they don't do this Elephants will become extinct. It's like everything else. We can say the hell with Global warming and just continue to pollute all we want because the Chinese will continue so what's the use? Or hunt whales to extinction because a couple of countries still do it.

It's the right thing to do.

Hey Pixey, ever done anything with Elk ivory?

Originally Posted by mjsorkin

So I think we can all agree that prohibition of drugs in this country is a bad idea.

Michael

That would be a definite maybe. Like I said, the war on drugs has been going on for half a century give or take and there is no end in sight. Only thing I can say is there are no easy and obvious solutions to problems like these.

Bob

What the feds are trying to do is demonize Ivory, just like they tried to do with drugs and Alcohol,all total failures.
The market will go underground,the price of any Ivory will go off the charts.