Thread: The Ukraine situation

Originally Posted by BobH

Russia taking it and nobody much caring, if that is as far as it goes, should not surprise anyone.

Bob

Just the way it should be,let them sort it out,let us keep our nose out of it.

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

There are many reasons for war. Money is only one of them. Often times it's about power and often times it's about hate.

The only thing I know is it looks to me like the world is going to hell in a handbasket. I think the Human Race is entering a very critical period.

Not even trying to be funny - not at all but... every generation has said that throughout the history of man lol!! Every generation.

Keep positive my friend... and the world will be positive with you.

It is not strictly about money. Ukraine is heavily subsidized by Russia, that's why there is no alternative to it staying under Russian influence.

It is about restoring Russia to it's former superpower status - that is the legacy Putin wants and he thinks it is achievable. He just spent more money on a winter olympics than all former winter olympics combined.

Of course, extracting money is far easier when you are super power, so the long term strategy is very meaningful.

Then Putin is a KGB officer, he is actually a bit of the opposite of the macho image that he has been cultivating recently - he is reserved, calculating, and cautious.

He is most certainly not going to give control over Crimea any more than US would give control over Guam. I think this has been a base point in everybody's calculation no matter which side they are on.

Then there are the historic ties between Russia and Ukraine - the political and religious origins of Russia are in Kiev. Even a superficial familiarity with the history of that region is enough for the conclusion that Putin is not going to go to war with Ukraine.

So, what should be the US policy? Americans notoriously want everything to be simple, regardless of whether it is or it isn't. Either 'go all in' or 'stay the hell out of there'. In my view this is a serious flaw. There is a continuum of possible engagements and the extremes, while easy to understand are rarely the optimum.
If US wants to 'stand' for something meaningful it can not simply shrug it off as somebody else's problem. There were demonstrations against a corrupt, authoritarian, and kleptocratic government which lasted months, and close to 100 people were killed. The demonstrators vary from neo-facists, to nationalists, to democtats. At the end the government ceded control and left the country. A separate country pretty much annexed an autonomous region just because it could do it with impunity.
Brushing all this off as 'not my concern' is simply un-american in the sense that if you do it then you do not deserve hot dogs, beer, and fireworks come 4th of July.

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

There are many reasons for war. Money is only one of them. Often times it's about power and often times it's about hate.

The only thing I know is it looks to me like the world is going to hell in a handbasket. I think the Human Race is entering a very critical period.

You know if you look back in history this world has been going to hell in a hand basket since the beginning of recorded time. The only difference is the news media. and they are bias us.
depending on which news media you watch and there political out look. just my thoughts on the mater. and I don't why the US should send money to that country either. It just doesn't make since to borrow money to give away.

Originally Posted by pixelfixed

Just the way it should be,let them sort it out,let us keep our nose out of it.

Wasn't advocating anything either way, just amazed that the outcome, so far, would surprise anyone.

Bob

Originally Posted by gugi

.
Brushing all this off as 'not my concern' is simply un-american in the sense that if you do it then you do not deserve hot dogs, beer, and fireworks come 4th of July.

The US has a rich history of isolationism, in fact many Americans wanted nothing to do with WW2, until Pearl Harbor which some say Roosevelt pushed Japan into, but that is even more conspiracy theory...
So to imply that the US saying "It is not our concern" is somehow un-American is simply not true, it is actually very American. Looking back at US history it seems the worst move we ever made was it become involved with the UN

The world is however a much entangled place, with many strings going to many places, and ties attached to those strings, so it might no longer be possible for the US to sit back and watch...


http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h1601.html

Man - so after watching this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ5CpgaEnCo

It seems the Canadians think this all about oil... sigh.

Black Sea/Caspian oil.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Just looking at the world headlines right now it seems that the New Norm as you put it David is that the Crimea is Russian again, and nobody seems to care all that much.. In fact the Sound Bite for the day is that Russia gave it to Ukraine in 1954 and it should be no surprise that they just took it back..

Crimea is like Texas in that regard. Much like the US decided that it was going to own Texas, Russia may decide that it owns Crimea.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

So to imply that the US saying "It is not our concern" is somehow un-American is simply not true, it is actually very American.

Exactly.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Looking back at US history it seems the worst move we ever made was it become involved with the UN

Nah. Today's world is one of entanglement. The US is far too dependent on the rest to ride an isolationist course. Given that, the only choice the US could have made was to not become one of the inner circle UN members, and thus not be on the security council or have veto power in a body that includes pretty much all other countries.